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  • The first step towards justice.

    Finally

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10322295.stm

  • #2
    I agree Paddhboy...tis about time
    "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."- Sir Winston Churchill, about R.A.F. fighter pilots."
    "It is well that war is so terrible, else we grow to fond of it." - Robert E. Lee

    Comment


    • #3
      Lets skip over the who or why of the incident. Some say that the IRA fired first, and there where nail bombs and such being chucked at the para's.

      Lets skip over how the report could have come up with such accurate findings when peoples memories are bad 20 minutes after the event, let alone 20(ish) years, and will be influenced by which side of the story they want to believe.

      Lets get down to the other bits. Going after someone 30 years after the event? People have gotten on with their lives, and suddenly out of nowhere they get dragged into court with the possibility of catching a life sentence.
      How about the question of what will this do to the peace process? The Terrorists over there are still causing trouble and ramping up the pressure. Each year there's increased numbers of incidents. Paddies mounting VCP's armed with AK's and RPG's doesn't sound like those got decommissioned.
      Lets compare to the shooting of Jean Charles de Menendez. Not quite the same is it?
      Winnie says
      ---------------------------------
      "He fell out of a Gestapo car, over a bridge, and onto a railway line. Then was run over by the Berlin Express.

      It was an Accident."
      Herr Flick.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Paddybhoy View Post
        As oddly as you might find it. I agree. Tradgedy and wrong can only be addressed by the unbiased truth. It's hard to swallow sometimes but in the end it's what is needed.

        Thunder Dome

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't understand why all the fuss .There was a war on in 1972,and in war,mistakes happen ne nervous,anxious soldier shooting and the others following him .
          Has the IRA ever offered apologies for their'mistakes'? A lot of innocent civilians were killed in bombing attacks .

          Comment


          • #6
            Bloody Sunday was pretty much what happens when you get soldiers to police a crowd. Look at the shootings at Kent State university in the US a couple of years earlier.

            In fact, the paras in Londonderry had a lot more reason to expect to come under attack than the national guardsmen at Kent State. 8 soldiers and policemen had been murdered by the IRA in the preceding month.

            Comment


            • #7
              Let me preface my comments by putting my views in perspective. I am not a nationalist; I donít like nationalism and I donít like the Jingoism that goes with it. I am a republican in that I agree with the general idea of a liberal (or libertarian in the USA) democratic republic.
              I despise the IRA and what they have done and how they have sullied the name of Ireland for two generations. While the British government did engage in a dirty war, did pass on intelligence to Loyalist terrorists and assist them in the murder of British subjects the Irish government in the 1970ís were actively involved in the setting up of the IRA. So there is mud to be slung at both governments. That is no way should justify any attempt to establish a moral equivalence between the IRA and the British government. It is precisely because the British government can and should be held to a much higher standard than any terrorist organisation that the Saville enquiry was necessary. Not only do the families of those killed deserve closure but so do the UK armed forces and the UK justice system. The Widgery enquiry was a shameful whitewash and brought the credibility and moral standing of the legal establishment into question in Northern Ireland for decades.

              David Cameron is to be congratulated. He has done a very brave and significant thing the positive impact of which cannot be overestimated amongst the nationalist population in Northern Ireland.

              Originally posted by Listy View Post
              Some say that the IRA fired first, and there where nail bombs and such being chucked at the para's.
              That has been utterly discredited. You are grasping at straws.

              Originally posted by Listy View Post
              Lets skip over how the report could have come up with such accurate findings when peoples memories are bad 20 minutes after the event, let alone 20(ish) years, and will be influenced by which side of the story they want to believe.
              Actually itís nearly 40 years ago but people donít forget that sort of thing.

              Originally posted by Listy View Post
              Lets get down to the other bits. Going after someone 30 years after the event? People have gotten on with their lives, and suddenly out of nowhere they get dragged into court with the possibility of catching a life sentence.
              Shooting children in the back is not governed by a statute of limitation in the UK (as far as I know).
              Originally posted by Listy View Post
              How about the question of what will this do to the peace process?
              Thatís the big question. For this and other reasons I donít believe that prosecutions should take place.
              Originally posted by Listy View Post
              The Terrorists over there are still causing trouble and ramping up the pressure. Each year there's increased numbers of incidents.
              Where are you getting that idea from?
              Originally posted by Listy View Post
              Paddies mounting VCP's armed with AK's and RPG's doesn't sound like those got decommissioned.
              Those ďPaddiesĒ are British subjects, your countrymen, but I think you might be mistaken about some Somali-like gangs running around in Northern Ireland.
              Originally posted by Listy View Post
              Lets compare to the shooting of Jean Charles de Menendez. Not quite the same is it?
              No, in that case the police had real concerns that lives were in danger. The problem was bad luck and incompetence. In the case of Bloody Sunday soldiers shot civilians, many of then children, who were posing no real threat to them.
              "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
              validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
              "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Hop View Post
                Bloody Sunday was pretty much what happens when you get soldiers to police a crowd. Look at the shootings at Kent State university in the US a couple of years earlier.

                In fact, the paras in Londonderry had a lot more reason to expect to come under attack than the national guardsmen at Kent State. 8 soldiers and policemen had been murdered by the IRA in the preceding month.
                Agreed. Posse Comitatus exists for a reason and it is most certainly not to protect the military.

                I have mixed emotions about this one. Being of largely Irish heritage, I grew up a Republican and a tad bit anti-British, emphasis grew up. That being said, the time for the IRA (as I understand it) has long, long since passed and I don't condone or support their actions. My gut is that I would like to see healing and I don't know enough about this very delicate subject to know if this really helps. I am really anxious to see what the people who live there think though.

                I didn't grow up with any substantial Irish education, only watered down history books and pride in my heritage. I really want to understand this as much an outsider possibly could.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Listy View Post
                  Lets skip over the who or why of the incident. Some say that the IRA fired first, and there where nail bombs and such being chucked at the para's.

                  Lets skip over how the report could have come up with such accurate findings when peoples memories are bad 20 minutes after the event, let alone 20(ish) years, and will be influenced by which side of the story they want to believe.

                  Lets get down to the other bits. Going after someone 30 years after the event? People have gotten on with their lives, and suddenly out of nowhere they get dragged into court with the possibility of catching a life sentence.
                  How about the question of what will this do to the peace process? The Terrorists over there are still causing trouble and ramping up the pressure. Each year there's increased numbers of incidents. Paddies mounting VCP's armed with AK's and RPG's doesn't sound like those got decommissioned.
                  Lets compare to the shooting of Jean Charles de Menendez. Not quite the same is it?

                  IMO its unlikley that there will be any trials of the soldiers involved. The levels of evidence required for a public enquiry and a trial are two different things an enquiry has to prove a likleyhood a possiblilty of events. A trial has to prove the evidence beyond reasonable doubt. and the rules used for gathering the evidence for the enquiry pretty much rule out using it in a trial. It becomes inadmissable.

                  What will probably happen is the families will launch a civil case and the British Government will settle compensation out of court.

                  As for current events, its no secret that the Republican movement in the North split over the Good Friday agreement and the bombings and shootings carry on. But the likes of the Real IRA and Continuity IRA have nothing like the community support that PIRA did. In the recent shootings of a PSNI officer and a soldier the main stream republican community were providing information willingly to the police.

                  They might not have gone away yet. But its only because they havent noticed that their own community thinks the war is over.
                  "Sometimes its better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness" T Pratchett

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Is this where the IRA become resurected as a benevolent charity organisation and Jerry Adams and Martin McGuiness are the reincarnation of Francis of Icici. Memories are very very short with some people. When Gerry Adams and Mcguiness apologises for Omagh, Deal Barracks or sticking that bomb in that dustbin in that shopping centre in Warrington that blew up a toddler in his push chair or that one in the Arndale Centre in Manchester or that one in the City of London or Harrods etc etc then he can talk about justice. Piece of
                    Last edited by copenhagen; 16 Jun 10, 06:27.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                      Is this where the IRA become resurected as a benevolent charity organisation and Jerry Adams and Martin McGuiness are the reincarnation of Francis of Icici. Memories are very very short with some people. When Gerry Adams and Mcguiness apologises for Omagh, Deal Barracks or sticking that bomb in that dustbin in that shopping centre in Warrington that blew up a toddler in his push chair or that one in the Arndale Centre in Manchester or that one in the City of London or Harrods etc etc then he can talk about justice. Piece of
                      I agree completely with you but I am sure that you donít think the British state and armed forces should operate and be judged by the same standards as a murdering terrorist organisation. Thatís the point in all of this; the Paraís were deployed by the State and it and they must operate within the rule of law.
                      If the army shot over a dozen innocent people in Manchester during a civil rights march (protesting against imprisonment without trial and the lack of universal suffrage at local elections) would people in Britain feel the same way?
                      "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                      validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                      "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Years ago I talked to a couple of young ( at the time) Paras and the way they told it.......they were inexperienced in crowd control and faced with an ever increasing group of people, had been told to expect sniper fire, were getting all sorts of "stuff" thrown at them, getting more and more nervous when one of their young officers got hit by a bag of s###, at that time someone yelled "open fire"..and they did!!..End of story.....

                        Has any of you ever been in a riot???? I have and its bloody scary

                        I guess there is no excuse for what happend, but it did..then again they IRA were no bunch of choir boys when it came to bombs in pubs...."they" blew up my favorite pub in Londonderry......
                        Last edited by Bow; 16 Jun 10, 08:38.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                          Is this where the IRA become resurected as a benevolent charity organisation and Jerry Adams and Martin McGuiness are the reincarnation of Francis of Icici. Memories are very very short with some people. When Gerry Adams and Mcguiness apologises for Omagh, Deal Barracks or sticking that bomb in that dustbin in that shopping centre in Warrington that blew up a toddler in his push chair or that one in the Arndale Centre in Manchester or that one in the City of London or Harrods etc etc then he can talk about justice. Piece of

                          Didnt you see the bit on TV after the Manchester bomb were the Lord mayor thanked the IRA on the grounds that if there was one bit of Manchester that really needed bombing it was the bit they blew up?

                          It seems like half the politicians of the world either served time in prison for killing British troops or wanting to kill them. Begin for one. If I remember it rightly on his state visit to the UK he had to sit on a plane for half an hour while the UK authorities woke a judge up to cancel an arrest warrant.

                          Adams, Mcguiness and the rest of the self serving toads on both sides are no different. They will moan and posture and then tell the families to take the money. Because insisting on it going to trial causes them two problems.

                          1/ Any brief worth his salt will drag them in as witnesses and theres questions they really dont want to answer.

                          2/ The trial, if any will have to be held on the mainland and after 30 odd years of being bombed at and shot at by the IRA. Theres no way in this world your going to be able to find a jury of Brits who will vote guilty.

                          The Irish arent the only ones with long memories.
                          "Sometimes its better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness" T Pratchett

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                            Let me preface my comments by putting my views in perspective. I am not a nationalist; I donít like nationalism and I donít like the Jingoism that goes with it. I am a republican in that I agree with the general idea of a liberal (or libertarian in the USA) democratic republic.
                            I despise the IRA and what they have done and how they have sullied the name of Ireland for two generations. While the British government did engage in a dirty war, did pass on intelligence to Loyalist terrorists and assist them in the murder of British subjects the Irish government in the 1970ís were actively involved in the setting up of the IRA. So there is mud to be slung at both governments. That is no way should justify any attempt to establish a moral equivalence between the IRA and the British government. It is precisely because the British government can and should be held to a much higher standard than any terrorist organisation that the Saville enquiry was necessary. Not only do the families of those killed deserve closure but so do the UK armed forces and the UK justice system. The Widgery enquiry was a shameful whitewash and brought the credibility and moral standing of the legal establishment into question in Northern Ireland for decades.

                            David Cameron is to be congratulated. He has done a very brave and significant thing the positive impact of which cannot be overestimated amongst the nationalist population in Northern Ireland. ...

                            Well said
                            Last edited by GCoyote; 16 Jun 10, 12:48. Reason: fixed quote tags
                            "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."- Sir Winston Churchill, about R.A.F. fighter pilots."
                            "It is well that war is so terrible, else we grow to fond of it." - Robert E. Lee

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bow View Post
                              Years ago I talked to a couple of young ( at the time) Paras and the way they told it.......they were inexperienced in crowd control and faced with an ever increasing group of people, had been told to expect sniper fire, were getting all sorts of "stuff" thrown at them, getting more and more nervous when one of their young officers got hit by a bag of s###, at that time someone yelled "open fire"..and they did!!..End of story.....

                              Has any of you ever been in a riot???? I have and its bloody scary

                              I guess there is no excuse for what happend, but it did..then again they IRA were no bunch of choir boys when it came to bombs in pubs...."they" blew up my favorite pub in Londonderry......
                              That's not what happened. Solders initially opened fire on a crowd that was throwing stones etc but most firing took place after that against people that were running away. Some of those killed were shot dead at close range after they had been wounded, one while lying face down on the ground. 4 of those killed were children.

                              I have huge respect for the UK armed forces but there is no excuse for what happened that day in Derry or the cover-up that followed (and went all the way to the Prime Minister). David Cameron acknowledged that very well.

                              I do quite a lot of business in Northern Ireland. I have friends there. Most of them are protestant and Unionist. I have no problem with Northern Ireland being part of the UK. I do have a problem with comments like ďThe Irish arent the only ones with long memories.Ē DARKPLACE, you are from the UK, so were the people killed that day. UK solders shot 14 unarmed UK subjects dead. They were your countrymen, not mine yet you talk about it as if it took place in a foreign land during a war.
                              "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                              validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                              "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                              Comment

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