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  • COVID 19 devastates Italy

    Italy sends a warning to the United States:

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/hea...cid=spartandhp
    Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

  • #2
    How many casualties out of how many population?

    How many casualties compared to all other infectious sources every year?

    I have to seriously doubt that Italy is being "devastated" by any accepted standard. These are the people who sank a cruise liner because the captain was entertaining a female of his bridge and left a lot of people to drown.

    Italiy is not the Safety Capitol of Europe.

    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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    • #3
      You do have to remember that we live in what some call a 'postheroic' society. Our ancestors begrudgingly accepted a certain loss ratio within the species from various large-scale (for their times) conflicts and plagues. We, on the other hand, have fully accepted Peace and believe that Science can solve everything and thus we have a far lower threshold of casualties as a society before the outcry is overwhelming. It's not anyone's particular fault, it's something that generally happens as a society ages and becomes sessile rather than advancing into new and dangerous frontiers.
      Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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      • #4
        I doubt our ancestors would have 'begrudgingly accepted a certain loss ratio' had they been presented with a chance of averting that loss either partially or fully. We have that chance. Our ancestors did not. Also leaving the sick and the elderly to just perish from the disease when there is an option not to do so does not strike me as 'heroic' or 'postheroic' but something quite different. Perhaps 'antiheroic'. It takes heroism to be able to pull through this but it doesn't take heroism to throw the sick and the elderly under the buss.
        It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

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        • #5
          Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
          You do have to remember that we live in what some call a 'postheroic' society. Our ancestors begrudgingly accepted a certain loss ratio within the species from various large-scale (for their times) conflicts and plagues. We, on the other hand, have fully accepted Peace and believe that Science can solve everything and thus we have a far lower threshold of casualties as a society before the outcry is overwhelming. It's not anyone's particular fault, it's something that generally happens as a society ages and becomes sessile rather than advancing into new and dangerous frontiers.
          I’m sure our ancestors would have protected the sick and elderly better if they had more capabilities to do it like we do today
          Wolf packs and Prides of Lions protect their elderly members we want to do the same too although in this case we’re risking our economies to do it if the economy gets so bad then we’ll have to let nature take it’s course to prevent an economic collapse
          Last edited by Snowshoveler; 18 Mar 20, 16:56.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            How many casualties out of how many population?

            How many casualties compared to all other infectious sources every year?

            I have to seriously doubt that Italy is being "devastated" by any accepted standard. These are the people who sank a cruise liner because the captain was entertaining a female of his bridge and left a lot of people to drown.

            Italiy is not the Safety Capitol of Europe.
            As usual the media are generalising and exaggerating :
            for a population of 60 million,Italy has 36000 confirmed cases
            3000 dead
            4000 recovered ( always hidden by the media )
            29000 active cases.
            But most cases are not in the North, but in certain parts of the North
            Lombardy (10 million inhabitants )17000 cases,2000 dead
            Emilia-Romagna (4,5 million inhabitants )4525 cases,458 dead
            Venice 3214 cases ,94 dead
            That means that without Lombardy there are 19000 cases,1000 dead for 50 million people .
            And the CV is concentrated in certain parts of Lombardy ( Bergamo )
            The Italian government is transporting CV patients from the North to other parts of Italy ,which means that ,opposite what the media are claiming, Italian healthcare system is not collapsing .

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            • #7
              Originally posted by ljadw View Post

              As usual the media are generalising and exaggerating :
              for a population of 60 million,Italy has 36000 confirmed cases
              3000 dead
              4000 recovered ( always hidden by the media )
              29000 active cases.
              But most cases are not in the North, but in certain parts of the North
              Lombardy (10 million inhabitants )17000 cases,2000 dead
              Emilia-Romagna (4,5 million inhabitants )4525 cases,458 dead
              Venice 3214 cases ,94 dead
              That means that without Lombardy there are 19000 cases,1000 dead for 50 million people .
              And the CV is concentrated in certain parts of Lombardy ( Bergamo )
              The Italian government is transporting CV patients from the North to other parts of Italy ,which means that ,opposite what the media are claiming, Italian healthcare system is not collapsing .
              Transportation of patients to other parts of the country is what should happen in a health system. When one part is under stress other parts should take the strain. It is normal and doubtlessly is just the enactment if previously set up contingency plans. All advanced nations will have such plans.
              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                How many casualties out of how many population?

                How many casualties compared to all other infectious sources every year?

                I have to seriously doubt that Italy is being "devastated" by any accepted standard. These are the people who sank a cruise liner because the captain was entertaining a female of his bridge and left a lot of people to drown.

                Italiy is not the Safety Capitol of Europe.

                Only old people and those who have already long hard diseases) are dying. Virus' strength to harm isnt problem then its ability to spread that fast.

                If you have that much sick people, you shut everything down.

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                • #9
                  Coronavirus Update: Italy reports record death toll

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                  • #10
                    Naturally, if we are to judge Italy by the sinking of the Costa Concordia, then we should also judge other countries, say the USA, by similar individual events.

                    I'd choose the Cermis massacre. 19 skiers and 1 worker were killed. A group of Americans
                    - disregarded their orders,
                    - flew off course from their training mission flight plan,
                    - flew below the minimum safety altitude, along an alpine valley,
                    - flew their aircraft upside down,
                    - and in so doing, cut the cable of a cable car system and killed 20 people.

                    The reason why they were doing so? Well, they had a private camcorder with them, and as soon as they landed, they destroyed the tape (i.e., the evidence of their crime). In other words, they were providing themselves with a hair-raising flight video to show the girls when they went back home.

                    In the case of Costa Concordia, at least the captain and the other people involved in the wrong decisions were civilians. In the Cermis manslaughter case, they were trained USMC servicemen.

                    So if we were to judge on this one instance, we'd have to conclude that the United States Marine Corps is an army of dangerously incompetent, manslaughter-prone clowns, and by extension, that the country they serve, the United States of America, is a country of childish, irresponsible buffoons you shouldn't trust with a toy tricycle, let alone a military jet aircraft.

                    But naturally, nobody would reach a judgement on the basis of such an appallingly, blindingly stupid mental process. Who ever would?
                    Michele

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Michele View Post
                      Naturally, if we are to judge Italy by the sinking of the Costa Concordia, then we should also judge other countries, say the USA, by similar individual events.

                      I'd choose the Cermis massacre. 19 skiers and 1 worker were killed. A group of Americans
                      - disregarded their orders,
                      - flew off course from their training mission flight plan,
                      - flew below the minimum safety altitude, along an alpine valley,
                      - flew their aircraft upside down,
                      - and in so doing, cut the cable of a cable car system and killed 20 people.

                      The reason why they were doing so? Well, they had a private camcorder with them, and as soon as they landed, they destroyed the tape (i.e., the evidence of their crime). In other words, they were providing themselves with a hair-raising flight video to show the girls when they went back home.

                      In the case of Costa Concordia, at least the captain and the other people involved in the wrong decisions were civilians. In the Cermis manslaughter case, they were trained USMC servicemen.

                      So if we were to judge on this one instance, we'd have to conclude that the United States Marine Corps is an army of dangerously incompetent, manslaughter-prone clowns, and by extension, that the country they serve, the United States of America, is a country of childish, irresponsible buffoons you shouldn't trust with a toy tricycle, let alone a military jet aircraft.

                      But naturally, nobody would reach a judgement on the basis of such an appallingly, blindingly stupid mental process. Who ever would?
                      The issue with the Costa captain was not so much his incompetence or negligence but the fact that his first priority was his own personal safety. Leaving his passengers and crew on a sinking ship, some of whom died. There is an old maritime tradition that the captain should go down with his ship or at least not leave until everyone is safe.
                      "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                        The issue with the Costa captain was not so much his incompetence or negligence but the fact that his first priority was his own personal safety. Leaving his passengers and crew on a sinking ship, some of whom died. There is an old maritime tradition that the captain should go down with his ship or at least not leave until everyone is safe.
                        Not what the other poster highlighted. In any case, the USMC crew I mentioned also, after cutting the cable, thought solely about saving their sorry skins.
                        Michele

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Michele View Post
                          ---

                          But naturally, nobody would reach a judgement on the basis of such an appallingly, blindingly stupid mental process. Who ever would?
                          Anyone reading that can see that you desperately want them to believe it, otherwise why did you describe it like that and highlight the very worst of it?
                          It appears that Italy is just as sensitive as China and just as angry, and looking for a way to transfer blame anywhere they can.

                          Has the Government there apologized it's people yet? You know, for interpreting every anti-virus measure as anti-Chinese racism in those crucial early days?

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                          • #14
                            'It's a war, it's a disaster' - Lombardy hospital struggles to cope with coronavirus crisis

                            * looks like the video was deleted
                            Last edited by OttoHarkaman; 21 Mar 20, 08:39.

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                            • #15
                              Coronavirus: Italy's death toll surges with peak nowhere in sight | DW News

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