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  • #46
    Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

    When the loans were to buy back your own country then yes, they were buying back their own country.
    If someone stole your car would you be happy to buy it back from them?
    All property is theft as they say.

    The fact that the Free State settled the claims by a payment to the UK of £10 million in 1938 is pretty much acknowledgment of who was in the right.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Gooner View Post

      The most important factors in the population explosion were the agricultural revolution and the decline in the death rates caused by advancing medical knowledge, improved nutrition and the drinking of tea.
      We were well behind the curve when it came to the agricultural revolution. If you look at a population growth graph for England or mainland countries like France you'll see a much more gradual increase over a longer period.

      800px-Population_of_Ireland_and_Europe_1750_to_2005.svg.png
      Last edited by E.D. Morel; 13 Feb 20, 06:59.
      "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
      validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
      "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Gooner View Post

        All property is theft as they say.

        The fact that the Free State settled the claims by a payment to the UK of £10 million in 1938 is pretty much acknowledgment of who was in the right.
        If might is right then I agree but it certainly shows who won the "Land War" and it certainly wasn't Ireland.
        Germany successfully invaded France in 1939 but that success doesn't mean they were right to do so.
        God, it seems, is always on the side of the victor, having previously been on both sides.
        "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
        validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
        "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

          If might is right then I agree but it certainly shows who won the "Land War" and it certainly wasn't Ireland.
          Germany successfully invaded France in 1939 but that success doesn't mean they were right to do so.
          God, it seems, is always on the side of the victor, having previously been on both sides.
          You imagine that somehow an Ireland without any intervention from the Britain would, uniquely in the world, have evolved a fair, decent and equitable system of land ownership?

          No, it would just be the same as everywhere else, the great majority of land ending up in the hands of the few. As indeed it was before all the land was redistributed to Protestants in the 17th Century

          The Irish Land Acts were pretty advanced for the time enabling tenant farmers, through loans, to buy the land that they farmed.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Gooner View Post

            You imagine that somehow an Ireland without any intervention from the Britain would, uniquely in the world, have evolved a fair, decent and equitable system of land ownership?
            Absolutely not. We were perfectly able to oppress our own before and during English rule. The people who sent the food out of the country during the famine were Irish born so I'm no illusions that it would have been Eden here without the English.
            "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
            validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
            "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

              We were well behind the curve when it came to the agricultural revolution. If you look at a population growth graph for England or mainland countries like France you'll see a much more gradual increase over a longer period.

              800px-Population_of_Ireland_and_Europe_1750_to_2005.svg.png

              I think that graph actually shows Ireland was ahead in the agricultural productivity game. Which shouldn't be a surprise as the agricultural revolution began in Britain.

              Ireland was probably behind the mainland as less capital available for investment - most landlords were indebted - and, ironically, a reluctance to clear marginal land of their tenants as happened, for example, in the Scottish Highlands.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                I think that graph actually shows Ireland was ahead in the agricultural productivity game. Which shouldn't be a surprise as the agricultural revolution began in Britain.
                That's entirely dependent on who you ask

                The agricultural revolution has its roots in the Low Countries, as Holland’s middle-class society was ahead of its time in the seventeenth century.
                By this time, the Low Countries were home to enclosed fields, crop rotation, the use of manure, and a diversity of crops
                .
                The English first learned quite a bit from the Dutch in the first half of the seventeenth century, as the Dutch began to teach the English how to drain marshland.
                An ambassador to Holland, he brought back information about turnips and clover. He is said to have talked about turnips so much after his retiring that he gained the nickname "Turnip" Townshend.
                http://johnstonapeuro.weebly.com/upl..._completed.pdf
                Last edited by Snowygerry; 13 Feb 20, 08:20.
                Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Game.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

                  That's entirely dependent on who you ask


                  http://johnstonapeuro.weebly.com/upl..._completed.pdf

                  That is fair enough. The Cloggies were ahead of the world in the 17th Century

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                    Surry, you are correct but I'm sure you accept that a very poor subsistence farming population would be unable to buy that land. It was the impoverishment of the population over the previous 200 years which resulted in the circumstances which meant that the failure of the potato crop led to a famine.
                    It is worth noting that in many parts of Ireland Landlords spend vast amounts of money feeding their tenants and it was British indifference and Anglo-Irish greed that turned it into what it was.
                    The Corn Laws were there to protect British farmers from cheap imports.
                    Info on exports of food during the Famine here.

                    I know this is a history forum but this thread is about current events, not what happened 150 years ago when both the Britain and Ireland were very different countries.

                    Sinn Féin, more than anything, represent an antagonist and simplistic view of Irishness which is tethered to the past and will never acknowledge that the Unionists in Northern Ireland are as Irish as they are. The Unionist version of the Irishness is very different to theirs, or mine, but it is no less valid.
                    Sinn Féin want a united Ireland but their vision is one where Northern Ireland is succumbed into Ireland with no real consideration for a Unionist tradition that dates back over 400 years. I totally reject that Sinn Féin view.

                    They are a populist, opportunistic party with far left policies, tethered to the past with a veneer of social liberalism over a deep seated sectarianist, xenophobic, racist, homophobic underbelly. They have taken steps down the road to constitutional democracy but I'm not sure how far down that road they have actually gone. Their track record in the Northern Ireland Executive is what makes be question that journey but in fairness the DUP are no better.

                    I must admit by bias here; I am totally against a united Ireland; NI is a failed economic and social construct rife with bigotry, intolerance and sectarianism. It would be a disaster both economically and socially to take it on.
                    Your link in part blames free market economics for the famine when the reverse is the case. Under free markets there would have been no Corn Laws. Bread would have been cheaper, the grain price would have been lower so there would have been no incentive to export it. So if anything the Famine was caused by protectionism and the favouring of British (including Irish) farmers at the expense of everyone else. Because bread would have been cheaper there would have been less dependence on potatoes and much less starvation. Further because an alternative cheap food would have been available the ordinary people would have been able to work in factories etc resulting in them becoming more prosperous and creating a virtuous circle. Protectionism kills.
                    "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Gooner View Post


                      I think that graph actually shows Ireland was ahead in the agricultural productivity game. Which shouldn't be a surprise as the agricultural revolution began in Britain.

                      Ireland was probably behind the mainland as less capital available for investment - most landlords were indebted - and, ironically, a reluctance to clear marginal land of their tenants as happened, for example, in the Scottish Highlands.
                      I think both Britain and Ireland were behind the mainland when it came to the Agricultural Revolution. The clearances in the West of the Country happened during the Famine. The reason the population in the west (Connacht) was so high was because the native population of Ulster were moved to Connacht during the Plantation of Ulster in the 1600's. The highland clearances were indeed savagery at a level as bad as anything that the English did in Ireland.
                      It's worth noting that in 1800 only 5% of land in Ireland was owned by Catholics with 8,000 to 10,000 protestants owning the other 95%. This was mainly due to land confiscations by Cromwell, Charles II and William III in the late 17th century and the enforcement of the Penal Laws. A large number of landlords were absentees, living in England although that doesn't mean they were bad landlords; the estates owned by the Duke of Devonshire in Waterford were very well run and the tenants were treated very fairly.

                      This makes interesting reading on the topic.

                      How did we get here from the Shinners doing will in the election?

                      "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                      validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                      "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                        Surry, you are correct but I'm sure you accept that a very poor subsistence farming population would be unable to buy that land. It was the impoverishment of the population over the previous 200 years which resulted in the circumstances which meant that the failure of the potato crop led to a famine.
                        It is worth noting that in many parts of Ireland Landlords spend vast amounts of money feeding their tenants and it was British indifference and Anglo-Irish greed that turned it into what it was.
                        The Corn Laws were there to protect British farmers from cheap imports.
                        Info on exports of food during the Famine here.

                        I know this is a history forum but this thread is about current events, not what happened 150 years ago when both the Britain and Ireland were very different countries.

                        Sinn Féin, more than anything, represent an antagonist and simplistic view of Irishness which is tethered to the past and will never acknowledge that the Unionists in Northern Ireland are as Irish as they are. The Unionist version of the Irishness is very different to theirs, or mine, but it is no less valid.
                        Sinn Féin want a united Ireland but their vision is one where Northern Ireland is succumbed into Ireland with no real consideration for a Unionist tradition that dates back over 400 years. I totally reject that Sinn Féin view.

                        They are a populist, opportunistic party with far left policies, tethered to the past with a veneer of social liberalism over a deep seated sectarianist, xenophobic, racist, homophobic underbelly. They have taken steps down the road to constitutional democracy but I'm not sure how far down that road they have actually gone. Their track record in the Northern Ireland Executive is what makes be question that journey but in fairness the DUP are no better.

                        I must admit by bias here; I am totally against a united Ireland; NI is a failed economic and social construct rife with bigotry, intolerance and sectarianism. It would be a disaster both economically and socially to take it on.
                        The WAPO is NOT a good source for the Irish Famine .

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                          We were well behind the curve when it came to the agricultural revolution. If you look at a population growth graph for England or mainland countries like France you'll see a much more gradual increase over a longer period.

                          800px-Population_of_Ireland_and_Europe_1750_to_2005.svg.png
                          To his credit, George the Third and Queen Charlotte did extensively tour the tenant' farms of both Ireland and England- a fact not lost on British Royal Cartoonists....
                          The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by marktwain View Post

                            To his credit, George the Third and Queen Charlotte did extensively tour the tenant' farms of both Ireland and England- a fact not lost on British Royal Cartoonists....
                            As we say in Dublin, he did in his hole visit tenant' farms.
                            A summary of royal visits to Ireland 1821 to 1995.

                            George came to Ireland a few days after his wife had committed suicide in order to screw his mistress. He was a a slob and a drunk. When he died in 1830, The Times of London stated that ‘there was never an individual less regretted of his fellow creatures than the late king'.
                            Last edited by E.D. Morel; 14 Feb 20, 05:07.
                            "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                            validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                            "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                              As we say in Dublin, he did in his hole visit tenant' farms.
                              A summary of royal visits to Ireland 1821 to 1995.

                              George came to Ireland a few days after his wife had committed suicide in order to screw his mistress. He was a a slob and a drunk. When he died in 1830, The Times of London stated that ;there was never an individual less regretted of his fellow creatures than the late king'.
                              I believe that the article is for - George the Fourth, his royal painin arse, the Whale of Princes...
                              George the third was his own act- but when sane, rather a sturdy fellow on the farm front when sane....Infamous among Royalty for not keeping mistresses- although queen Charlotte, having fifteen! children, may have occasionally wished for one.....

                              I can see your point though- the Blood line petered out....
                              The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                                Sure, but if, adjusted for demographics, you have the second highest per capita spend in the world and you still have a so-so healthcare system then you are wasting vast amounts of money. Of course the poison that is public sector unions stymie change and restructuring but their leaders have no problem with having blood on their hands (something they have in common with the Shinners). Fix the leaks in the bucket before you pour more money in.
                                On social welfare we pay unemployment rates which are twice as high as the UK and an old age pension of €248.50 a week. Pensioners are the richest demographic in the country and we have full employment yet the welfare rates for long term unemployed are the same as for short term unemployed. Basically we are already a very socialist country.
                                Thank you. I hadn't realized the extent of the largesse.
                                I suppose that Sinn Fein with its traditions of Larkin and Connolly (I must be careful here as I'm not an expert in Irish history), socialism mixed with patriotism, would continue such policy.

                                I suppose there's no chance that Sinn Fein ("We ourselves" or "Ourselves Alone") will want to break with Brussels ?
                                "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                                Samuel Johnson.

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