Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Underlying cause behind the Brexit?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Underlying cause behind the Brexit?

    Worth reading: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comm..._the_value_of/
    Actual paywalled article: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b...on-t-3vdjkz90t

    Essentially the problem with the EU for the current UK leaders has been that the EU has rules and that it actually follows them. Of course there is a chance that this is just an 'attack piece' by Cameron (or that Times journalist) on the current UK leaders but the current UK leaders' behavior and their clear & utter lack of understanding how the EU works and their strange insistence on things which the EU could not give in (even if it had wanted to, which it didn't) indicates that it might actually be hitting on the spot. That being said i do not see much evidence that this would be limited just to Tories, the Labour suggestions are mostly similar, and same goes for other parties too (like Farage's nonsensical 'clean break' - i think he believes it leads to 'clean table' afterwards but that won't be happening, for the same reasons why Tories currently struggle). What do you think?
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

  • #2
    What were the EU rules about not negotiating a free trade agreement within the withdrawal agreement?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Gooner View Post
      What were the EU rules about not negotiating a free trade agreement within the withdrawal agreement?
      I'm not quite sure why you see that as an issue. I for one find it very difficult to understand how any kind of a trade agreement could even be even imagined before the actual post-separation status would have been agreed. That was part of the withdrawal agreement and it affects massively what the any kind of post separation agreement could be. As i see it the withdrawal agreement (and agreed post-separation relation) determines the legal framework against which any kind of free trade agreement would need to be build on.
      It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Gooner View Post
        What were the EU rules about not negotiating a free trade agreement within the withdrawal agreement?
        That would mean of course you remain IN the EU untill such agreement is found (which is effectively the same as the "backstop"), which may take years,

        would that be acceptable to the UK electorate and parliament ?

        But it is pretty much what has been expected to happen here since May's proposal was rejected multiple times by the British house.

        It is, incidentally, also what I predicted last August

        https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/f...47#post5136047
        High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
          That would mean of course you remain IN the EU untill such agreement is found (which is effectively the same as the "backstop"), which may take years,
          Eh? No I meant after invoking Article 50 the negotiations to leave would have encompassed trade agreements and everything else all in one nice neat package. No 'backstop' needed.

          For me, not doing that rather proves what a sack of schijt the EU is and therefore the UK was right in voting to leave

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

            That would mean of course you remain IN the EU untill such agreement is found (which is effectively the same as the "backstop"), which may take years,

            would that be acceptable to the UK electorate and parliament ?

            But it is pretty much what has been expected to happen here since May's proposal was rejected multiple times by the British house.

            It is, incidentally, also what I predicted last August

            https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/f...47#post5136047
            Thank you Nostradamus.

            Rimshot
            Last edited by slick_miester; 25 Sep 19, 09:24.
            I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Gooner View Post
              Eh? No I meant after invoking Article 50 the negotiations to leave would have encompassed trade agreements and everything else all in one nice neat package. No 'backstop' needed.
              How could you ever have any kind of discussions of free trade without the post-separation relations having been agreed?

              Besides a free trade agreement alone would not end the need for the backstop since even a free trade agreement leads to there being checks on the borders. It is not a magical thing that makes borders go away.
              For me, not doing that rather proves what a sack of schijt the EU is and therefore the UK was right in voting to leave
              Actually it seems more like the exact same as what was mentioned in the OP. UK wishful thinking colliding with rules and regulations of both the EU as well as those related to the international trade.
              It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                Eh? No I meant after invoking Article 50 the negotiations to leave would have encompassed trade agreements and everything else all in one nice neat package. No 'backstop' needed.
                Well the negotiations on a trade agreement, and specifically the border modalities with Ireland may take longer than the inherent time-limit of article 50.

                Which turned out to be the case apparently - that was presumably why May wanted you to get out first (nominally)via her withdrawal agreement, and then continue to negotiate the rest.

                (Edit, I suspect this was done to adress the fear that as the negotiations dragged on the referendum result would lose legitimacy and remainers would seek to negate it - but that's just a guess.)

                I don't know precisely how long it took to reach the other trade agreements the EU has in place, but it was never easy or quick to my knowledge.

                https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/co...nd-agreements/


                In this case - I suspect the specific border arrangements between UK-Ireland/NI are the problem, not the actual trade agreement, that is of course not the case when you negotiate with Japan or Canada, for example.
                Last edited by Snowygerry; 25 Sep 19, 09:09.
                High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                  that is of course not the case when you negotiate with Japan or Canada, for example.
                  And that still takes the better part of a decade.

                  "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                  validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                  "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                    In this case - I suspect the specific border arrangements between UK-Ireland/NI are the problem, not the actual trade agreement, that is of course not the case when you negotiate with Japan or Canada, for example.
                    Meh, if there continues to be tariff free trade between the UK and the EU most of the border issue vanishes. Keep NI - or indeed the whole UK - agriculturally aligned with the EU - again no big deal - and that's most of the other issues.

                    The panic and terror engendered that non-UK items may cross the NI-ROI border and contaminate the Holy Single Market really ain't such a big deal assuming friendly cross-border co-operation.

                    And there was me thinking friendly co-operation with the neighbours was one of the rules of the EU!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                      Meh, if there continues to be tariff free trade between the UK and the EU most of the border issue vanishes. Keep NI - or indeed the whole UK - agriculturally aligned with the EU - again no big deal - and that's most of the other issues.

                      The panic and terror engendered that non-UK items may cross the NI-ROI border and contaminate the Holy Single Market really ain't such a big deal assuming friendly cross-border co-operation.

                      And there was me thinking friendly co-operation with the neighbours was one of the rules of the EU!
                      Wow, just ignoring the rules the EU is built on. Did you read the link in the first post?
                      "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                      validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                      "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                        Meh, if there continues to be tariff free trade between the UK and the EU most of the border issue vanishes. Keep NI - or indeed the whole UK - agriculturally aligned with the EU - again no big deal - and that's most of the other issues.
                        Some issues are reduced, not vanished. Try taking a look at say Finnish/Swedish borders with Norway. Or the various EU borders with Switzerland. They have checks. They have tons of surveillance. They are not frictionless borders despite of having much greater co-operation than what the UK is suggesting.
                        The panic and terror engendered that non-UK items may cross the NI-ROI border and contaminate the Holy Single Market really ain't such a big deal assuming friendly cross-border co-operation.
                        That is not anything which holds under any sort of legal scrutiny. So it doesn't work. At all. Again you just show how the British wishes keep colliding with realities of rules and regulations.
                        And there was me thinking friendly co-operation with the neighbours was one of the rules of the EU!
                        What was said has nothing to do with that. You can not replace legal guarantees with 'friendly goodwill'. It just doesn't work. Finland and Norway have 'friendly co-operation' by joint border inspections for example.
                        It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                          Again you just show how the British wishes keep colliding with realities of rules and regulations.
                          And Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland border is a special case, needing new rules and regulations.

                          On the inability of the EU to rapidly create new rules or regulations see EU's insistence of negotiating withdrawal agreement before trade agreement, see EU's insistence that the withdrawal agreement cannot be renegotiated.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                            And Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland border is a special case, needing new rules and regulations.
                            Not really. The whole N.I. peace depends in its very core from the lack of borders and there is no known way - at least the UK government has been unable to locate any - which would or could fulfill that. No matter how much you would wiggle. Not at least at the moment. That is the reason for the need for the backstop - which guarantees full regulatory and customs alignment on the island of Ireland which does allow for the de facto non-existence of the border.

                            However contrary to what you seem to be claiming the EU has said from the start - and has kept saying - that should the UK come forward with legally valid methods for handling that border, methods which simultaneously keep the EU SM & CU intact and allow GFA to work they would readily take a look at them. The problem is that there are no currently know solutions to that issue - no 'rapid movement' or 'rapid creation' of rules or regulations can change that.
                            It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                              The panic and terror engendered that non-UK items may cross the NI-ROI border and contaminate the Holy Single Market really ain't such a big deal assuming friendly cross-border co-operation.
                              Are you entirely sure border crossing won't happen in the other direction ?

                              We have thousands of Sudanese, Eritreans, Ghanese, Nigerians, not to mention millions of Afghans, Iraqis, and even some Bulgarians and a few Poles lined up willing and ready to go to Britain on our beaches, waiting to cross as soon the Dublin agreement is no longer in force and you can no longer send them back....

                              D-day will pale in comparison

                              "Take control of our borders" was not a EU slogan was it ?
                              Last edited by Snowygerry; 26 Sep 19, 03:20.
                              High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X