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  • Originally posted by MarkV View Post

    If the crofters had been replaced with large scale arable agriculture that might just barely be a credible argument but as the land was totally unsuitable for this
    Hence Scotland's long-time status as a net exporter of people: the land could support only a finite number of inhabitants.

    Originally posted by MarkV View Post
    it's so much BS.
    Are you suggesting that agrarian/pastoral Scotland was wealthy and able to support all of her sons and daughters in relative health and prosperity?

    In the early seventeenth century famine was relatively common, with four periods of famine prices between 1620 and 1625. . . . .

    There was a slump in trade with the Baltic and France from 1689 to 1691, caused by French protectionism and changes in the Scottish cattle trade, followed by four years of failed harvests (1695, 1696 and 1698-9), known as the "seven ill years" The result was severe famine and depopulation, particularly in the north. . . . .

    By the start of the 18th century, a political union between Scotland and England became politically and economically attractive, promising to open up the much larger markets of England, as well as those of the growing British Empire. The Scottish parliament voted on 6 January 1707, by 110 to 69 to adopt the Treaty of Union. It was a full economic union; indeed, most of its 25 articles dealt with economic arrangements for the new state known as "Great Britain." It added 45 Scots to the 513 members of the House of Commons and 16 Scots to the 190 members of the House of Lords, and ended the Scottish parliament. It also replaced the Scottish systems of currency, taxation and laws regulating trade with laws made in London. England had about five times the population of Scotland at the time, and about 36 times as much wealth.

    Wikipedia
    - emphasis mine

    Why was England so much more productive than Scotland? Clearly the greatest reason for that disparity was the climatic and arable land advantages enjoyed by England relative to Scotland. (I wouldn't be surprised if events in Scotland inspired David Ricardo's Theory of Rents.) Without a doubt the traditional agricultural/pastoral models would not suffice in a modern age, an age dominated by international trade and the growth of knowledge and technology. The first thing that had to change were the long-held customs of land tenure. They were simply no longer viable in the face of emerging modernity.

    Originally posted by MarkV View Post
    Much of the land was either turned over to rough grazing or for sports (shooting grouse or deer) and supported far fewer people than hitherto but made more cash for the larger landlords.
    Silly land owners: they wanted their land to generate wealth, not consume it.

    Originally posted by MarkV View Post
    It had little of no effect on food production and the relative prosperity, or lack of, for people in the Scots lowlands. Advances in Scottish well being had more to do with the industrial revolution and access to English capital to finance this.
    Without the failures of multiple harvest and the Darien scheme, there might not have been any Act of Union, and there might not have been sufficient Scottish access to English capital markets. Without the dislocations of the Clearances, there might not have been enough manpower to work the emerging factories of the Industrial Revolution in Scotland.
    I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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    • Originally posted by marktwain View Post

      Usually, by emigrating....

      It's hard to see any gain to an individual crofter who finds the offspring of the Laird he pledged his arm in war to, suddenly valuing him as less than a sheep...
      I said the great majority of people in Scotland benefited, eventually.

      The majority did not live in crofts in the Highlands.
      "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

      Comment


      • "Who owns Scotland" is a modern classic as questions go.

        Apparently still today less than 500 individuals sit on half the private land in Scotland, and they're not necessarily Scots either...
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3Ma1albzFc

        Comment


        • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

          Hence Scotland's long-time status as a net exporter of people: the land could support only a finite number of inhabitants.



          Are you suggesting that agrarian/pastoral Scotland was wealthy and able to support all of her sons and daughters in relative health and prosperity?

          - emphasis mine

          Why was England so much more productive than Scotland? Clearly the greatest reason for that disparity was the climatic and arable land advantages enjoyed by England relative to Scotland. (I wouldn't be surprised if events in Scotland inspired David Ricardo's Theory of Rents.) Without a doubt the traditional agricultural/pastoral models would not suffice in a modern age, an age dominated by international trade and the growth of knowledge and technology. The first thing that had to change were the long-held customs of land tenure. They were simply no longer viable in the face of emerging modernity.



          Silly land owners: they wanted their land to generate wealth, not consume it.



          Without the failures of multiple harvest and the Darien scheme, there might not have been any Act of Union, and there might not have been sufficient Scottish access to English capital markets. Without the dislocations of the Clearances, there might not have been enough manpower to work the emerging factories of the Industrial Revolution in Scotland.
          ooooh--HMMMMMMM.
          That rumbling sound, Slick,is either Your Byelorussian, or my Ukrainian ancestors rolling over in the grave remembering the 'great Polish Land reforms' of the second republic...

          I can agree with part of your argument. However, Croft farming in Scotland's Highlands still produces 20 %of its beef cattle, and 45 5 of its sheep..https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crofting

          The 'brutal Clearances' of the 1790's on were more an attempt to finally break the Clan system in the Highlands, (1745 and all), replacing clan governance with British loyal grazers backed by British bayonets, than an attempt to rationalize Scottish economics.
          Extensive sheep ranging had some less than desirable effects- large areas of Scottish highlands were deforested, and apex predators, other than the landowners, were extinguished.

          Wages and working conditions in the new industries were pretty bad.

          The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

          Comment


          • ^ Я українуь, як і ти.
            I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

            Comment


            • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
              ^ Я українуь, як і ти.
              My thorough Apologies,,countryman
              The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

              Comment


              • ^ Tи повинні бути.
                I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                Comment


                • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                  ^ Tи повинні бути.
                  Actually, I'm a quarter UKRAINIAN, BUT IT IS , APPARENTLY, THE QUARTER THAT INCLUDES EVERTHING FORM THE NECK UP..

                  Back to the Polish second republic, My step grandfather's relatives set up a business "importing" (over low water fords at midnight) Gaz AA (Russian ford model A's) chassis, then customizing them for Polish customers in the Kresy. ( cars, trucks, vans, buses, hearses, etc.)

                  things went well, until they started building vehicles for their own use.
                  they were hauled before the Polish magistrates and had to forfeit the vehicles, guilty of 'jeopardizing Russian Polish relations'.....

                  and became the laughing stock of their fellow Ukrainian businessmen ….
                  The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by marktwain View Post
                    Actually, I'm a quarter UKRAINIAN
                    I'm either an eighth, a quarter, or a half, depending on which relative is telling the story.

                    Originally posted by marktwain View Post
                    BUT IT IS , APPARENTLY, THE QUARTER THAT INCLUDES EVERTHING FORM THE NECK UP..
                    Could be worse: you could've married a Polack -- like I did.

                    Originally posted by marktwain View Post
                    Back to the Polish second republic, My step grandfather's relatives set up a business "importing" (over low water fords at midnight) Gaz AA (Russian ford model A's) chassis, then customizing them for Polish customers in the Kresy. ( cars, trucks, vans, buses, hearses, etc.)

                    things went well, until they started building vehicles for their own use.
                    they were hauled before the Polish magistrates and had to forfeit the vehicles, guilty of 'jeopardizing Russian Polish relations'.....

                    and became the laughing stock of their fellow Ukrainian businessmen ….
                    That's okay. My maternal grandfather -- son of a criminal who entered the US through Ellis Island under an assumed name, settled on the Lower East Side just in time for Prohibition, and then thought it smart not to cut the Guineas in. Guess how he turned out. Anyways, a decade-and-a-half later, as a wartime Merchant Marine and longtime friend of Crazy Joey Gallo's, he got the bright idea to buy nylons and cigarettes in NY, whiskey in Scotland, and trade them for whatever valuables he could find in Murmansk. On unassing the boat, the local "constabulary" ( ) overheard his Ukrainian, and picked him up instantly, returning him directly to his ship. They told his skipper that if they caught him on dry land again that they'd ship his shifty a$$ to Siberia.

                    I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

                      I'm either an eighth, a quarter, or a half, depending on which relative is telling the story.



                      Could be worse: you could've married a Polack -- like I did.



                      That's okay. My maternal grandfather -- son of a criminal who entered the US through Ellis Island under an assumed name, settled on the Lower East Side just in time for Prohibition, and then thought it smart not to cut the Guineas in. Guess how he turned out. Anyways, a decade-and-a-half later, as a wartime Merchant Marine and longtime friend of Crazy Joey Gallo's, he got the bright idea to buy nylons and cigarettes in NY, whiskey in Scotland, and trade them for whatever valuables he could find in Murmansk. On unassing the boat, the local "constabulary" ( ) overheard his Ukrainian, and picked him up instantly, returning him directly to his ship. They told his skipper that if they caught him on dry land again that they'd ship his shifty a$$ to Siberia.
                      You see? You see!! Nail what it sticks up always gets it hammered down.....)
                      The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

                        I'm either an eighth, a quarter, or a half, depending on which relative is telling the story.



                        Could be worse: you could've married a Polack -- like I did.



                        That's okay. My maternal grandfather -- son of a criminal who entered the US through Ellis Island under an assumed name, settled on the Lower East Side just in time for Prohibition, and then thought it smart not to cut the Guineas in. Guess how he turned out. Anyways, a decade-and-a-half later, as a wartime Merchant Marine and longtime friend of Crazy Joey Gallo's, he got the bright idea to buy nylons and cigarettes in NY, whiskey in Scotland, and trade them for whatever valuables he could find in Murmansk. On unassing the boat, the local "constabulary" ( ) overheard his Ukrainian, and picked him up instantly, returning him directly to his ship. They told his skipper that if they caught him on dry land again that they'd ship his shifty a$$ to Siberia.
                        And you have the gall to give out about the Irish!
                        "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                        validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                        "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                          And you have the gall to give out about the Irish!
                          Well, Gramps did spend a lot of time with the Irish youths of the Lower East Side . . . .

                          And marktwain, here's a wee history of my wife's family: Galician Poles in Jersey City. They weren't hardened criminals . . . . for the most part, but they wouldn't turn their nose up at something that "fell off the back of a truck," if you know what I mean.

                          Don't feel left out ED: Jersey City's Irish ward heelers were never above helping themselves to a little honoraria / graft / protection money / extortion.
                          Last edited by slick_miester; 20 Sep 19, 11:52.
                          I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                          Comment


                          • Turns out the Supreme Court doesn't think what Boris did was a 'bog standard prorogation'. Guess the Supreme Court spends too much time reading law & not enough time listening to angry middle aged men on the internet. Silly Supreme Court. Countdown to angry attacks on 'unelected judges' in....3....2....1.

                            Looks like the Boris bus & the reality bus just collided. Lucky for Boris the opposition is such a disgraceful excuse for a political party that he'll likely win any election.
                            Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by BF69 View Post
                              Turns out the Supreme Court doesn't think what Boris did was a 'bog standard prorogation'. Guess the Supreme Court spends too much time reading law & not enough time listening to angry middle aged men on the internet. Silly Supreme Court. Countdown to angry attacks on 'unelected judges' in....3....2....1.

                              Looks like the Boris bus & the reality bus just collided. Lucky for Boris the opposition is such a disgraceful excuse for a political party that he'll likely win any election.
                              The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                              Comment


                              • You would think that with his classical education Boris would know all about hubris. The gods certainly seem to be prepared to teach him and they don't follow the convention of not kicking a man when he's down - best time to give it some wellie - the Acuri scandal is hotting up - an investigating committee is asking for details of all contacts - that could get rather spicy.

                                Cheer up Boris could be worse - no ones's started impeachment proceedings - yet, And nobody wants to dig you up and move you either.

                                https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49819686
                                Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                                Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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