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  • #61
    Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
    They don't want all those EU laws, although I've yet to come across anyone who can list specific laws they have a problem with.
    They don't want immigrants stealing their jobs although most of those jobs are the ones that the locals won't do.
    They don't want unelected bureaucrats in Brussels telling them what to do, although very few seem to understand the structures of the EU or how little power actually resides with those bureaucrats.
    These are sadly the very things what most of the populists in the Europe are all about. In Finland the Finns Party is a stellar example of exactly this. Though i would clarify the second statement a bit - for some reason such groups are not at all opposed to having highly skilled immigrants arriving and taking highly demanding job positions (and hence high salaries). It is only bad if the immigrants arrive to take the low-end jobs.

    Also the opposition to the EU laws often tends to revolve on rather strange ideas. For example one of the leading figures of the Finns Party wants the EU to be turned back into freely flowing economic union (without any political supranational state concepts) thinking that it would allow free movement of goods without free movement of people without any kind of understanding that those four freedoms are exactly what is required for the freely flowing economy union...
    For me this is a good example of the dangers of populism and ill informed people taking strong positions on things they don't fully understand.
    Exactly.
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Metryll View Post
      Mark,

      As I understand this text, in case of Brexit, UK/NI would not longer to be abide by ECHR and EU ruling.
      That was the reason many considered the Good Friday Agreement a Constitutional document within the UK. It was brought to the courts there and they found otherwise.
      "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
      validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
      "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

        By what legal mechanism was this freedom of movement between the UK and the Irish Republic established?


        It was established when the Irish Free State was created. When Ireland has subsequently changed its position vis a vis Britain (for example leaving the Commonwealth) it has been left in place by mutual agreement. It was partially suspended (but not abolished) during WW2 on much the same grounds that the EU allows individual states to close their borders during a national emergency. Even then there was no real attempt to impede movement as thousands of Irish workers had come across to work in Britain's war factories where work was plentiful and wages much higher than in Ireland. Indeed the suspension may merely have been Winnie firing a shot across the Irish governments bows over allegations that a blind eye was being turned to U boats sheltering in Irish waters and reminding it that Ireland at the time was entirely dependant on trade with Britain
        Last edited by MarkV; 06 Jun 19, 04:52.
        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

        Comment


        • #64
          The Irish Free State was the precursor to the State of Ireland. It came into existence in 1922 as a dominion of the British commonwealth of Nations. It gained full self determination in 1931 when the Statute of Westminster was passed which removed dominion status from the then dominion states within the british Commonwealth.
          It became Ireland in 1938 after a new Constitution was passed by referendum in late 1937. The British Government refused to refer to Ireland as Ireland until quite recently, instead using the tem "Irish Republic" or "Eire" (Pronounced ear-ie without the fada over the "E". A fada is a diacritic marking which changes the sound of a letter.).

          Through that entire period the free movement of people across the border in Northern ireland was maintained although during various terrorist campaigns by Nationalist and Loyalist there was a hard border in place. It is the restoration of that border and its association with violence and gross inequality within Northern Ireland that people fear. The Unionist Government which ruled Northern Ireland from 1922 until 1972 was akin to the Apartheid government of South Africa. In places like Derry 2/3 of the population was Catholic but local boundaries were set so that they only elected 8 seats in the Council and the 1/3 Protestant population elected 12 seats. Not one Catholic was employed in the Guild Hall (the council building). The result was the vast majority of funding, housing and jobs went to the Protestant minority. Inspired by the Civil Rights movement in the USA in the 60's a Civil Rights Movement grew up in Northern Ireland. It was one of those marches in 1972 which the Parachute Regiment open fire on in what became known as Bloody Sunday.

          The Good Friday Agreement, with its underpinning by the ECHR, ensures that can not happen again. The DUP want Northern Ireland returned to what they used to refer to as "A Protestant Land for a Protestant People". With the removal of the requirement that no legislation passed by in breach of the ECHR they are a step closer to their aim. That may result in a return to violence, as happens when the government governs only for half the population, but the DUP simply don't care. It seems that the Brexiteers don't care either.
          "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
          validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
          "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Merkava188 View Post
            Boris Johnson looks like a better leader than May. Hopefully Johnson can finally bring about Brexit.
            Pretty much anyone would be a better leader than May. She is the worst Tory PM since Lord North, the PM who lost America.

            Boris is seen as charismatic and to be a leader whereas May is about as wooden as they come and was just a public sector middle manager completely unsuited to high office.

            "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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            • #66
              Raab, currently in fourth place amongst MPs, has announced that he is prepared to pro rogue Parliament if he cannot get the EU to renegotiate to enable the UK to leave in no deal.
              This would instantly solve the problems created by the pro EU Tories as they would not be able to legislate for another extension.
              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                Raab, currently in fourth place amongst MPs, has announced that he is prepared to pro rogue Parliament if he cannot get the EU to renegotiate to enable the UK to leave in no deal.
                This would instantly solve the problems created by the pro EU Tories as they would not be able to legislate for another extension.
                That would be a very contentious thing to do in that (The Queen in) Parliament is sovereign so in effect a massive decision would be taken out of the hands of the people and placed into the hands of the Prime Minister.
                I see Rory Stewart has come out strongly against it; he said to do so would be "illegal, unconstitutional, undemocratic and it wouldn't work". I like Rory Stewart. If I was British I'd vote for him. He's very smart, very well informed, very well travelled and was courageous enough to do a solo 32 day walk across Afghanistan in 2002.
                "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                  That would be a very contentious thing to do in that (The Queen in) Parliament is sovereign so in effect a massive decision would be taken out of the hands of the people and placed into the hands of the Prime Minister.
                  I see Rory Stewart has come out strongly against it; he said to do so would be "illegal, unconstitutional, undemocratic and it wouldn't work". I like Rory Stewart. If I was British I'd vote for him. He's very smart, very well informed, very well travelled and was courageous enough to do a solo 32 day walk across Afghanistan in 2002.
                  Courageous ?
                  You mean : stupid ,of course .

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                    Raab, currently in fourth place amongst MPs, has announced that he is prepared to pro rogue Parliament if he cannot get the EU to renegotiate to enable the UK to leave in no deal.
                    This would instantly solve the problems created by the pro EU Tories as they would not be able to legislate for another extension.
                    Bercow just killed that and there is no way he crown will get involved.
                    Only the Queen can do it and she will not allow herself to be used by the fruitcakes.

                    How well does this attempt to deny Parliament any say fit with one of the main reasons the Brexiteers wanted out. The mantra they had that 'Parliament is supreme' ?



                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by m kenny View Post

                      Bercow just killed that and there is no way he crown will get involved.
                      Only the Queen can do it and she will not allow herself to be used by the fruitcakes.

                      How well does this attempt to deny Parliament any say fit with one of the main reasons the Brexiteers wanted out. The mantra they had that 'Parliament is supreme' ?


                      Perhaps they've been taking lessons from O'Brian in Double think?
                      Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                      Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                        That would be a very contentious thing to do in that (The Queen in) Parliament is sovereign so in effect a massive decision would be taken out of the hands of the people and placed into the hands of the Prime Minister.
                        I see Rory Stewart has come out strongly against it; he said to do so would be "illegal, unconstitutional, undemocratic and it wouldn't work". I like Rory Stewart. If I was British I'd vote for him. He's very smart, very well informed, very well travelled and was courageous enough to do a solo 32 day walk across Afghanistan in 2002.
                        Unfortunately for Stewart, while the darling of the media he has very little support either within the PCP or the wider membership. Under the new rules he is unlikely to get enough support to even make the first round.

                        There is a belief in the Party that he is a bit confused and thinks he is standing for the leadership of the Lib Demís (who coincidentally are also electing a new leader at the moment).
                        Last edited by Surrey; 06 Jun 19, 12:15.
                        "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                          Unfortunately for Stewart, while the darling of the media he has very little support either within the PCP or the wider membership. Under the new rules he is unlikely to get enough support to even make the first round.

                          There is a belief in the Party that he is a bit confused and thinks he is standing for the leadership of the Lib Demís (who coincidentally are also electing a new leader at the moment).
                          None of which is slightly relevant to the constitutional issues raised
                          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                            None of which is slightly relevant to the constitutional issues raised
                            It is however relevant to the Conservative leadership election. The topic of this thread.
                            "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                              Unfortunately for Stewart, while the darling of the media he has very little support either within the PCP or the wider membership. Under the new rules he is unlikely to get enough support to even make the first round.

                              There is a belief in the Party that he is a bit confused and thinks he is standing for the leadership of the Lib Demís (who coincidentally are also electing a new leader at the moment).
                              Yes, he's far too balanced and rational to win a Tory leadership election in the current jingoistic fevered clamour amongth Brexiteer Conservatives to out-"Bri-ish" each other. The Clown who would be Churchill will probably win. Mrs. May will be remembered fondly...
                              "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                              validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                              "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                                The Good Friday Agreement, with its underpinning by the ECHR,
                                The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU.

                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...n_Human_Rights

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