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  • #46
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post

    The obvious one to make concessions on is 'freedom of movement'.
    Restricting freedom of movement: might that not violate the Good Friday Agreement?

    Of course, the United Kingdom could choose to withdraw from the Good Friday Agreement . . . .

    The other option is to cut Ulster loose.
    I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

      Restricting freedom of movement: might that not violate the Good Friday Agreement?

      Of course, the United Kingdom could choose to withdraw from the Good Friday Agreement . . . .

      The other option is to cut Ulster loose.
      Freedom of movement between citizens of Ireland and the UK and vice versa is the result of a much older agreement and nothing to do with either the GFA or the EU and therefore changes to the status of either would not affect it
      Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
      Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

        Restricting freedom of movement: might that not violate the Good Friday Agreement?

        Of course, the United Kingdom could choose to withdraw from the Good Friday Agreement . . . .

        The other option is to cut Ulster loose.
        As long as they don't expect us to take it then they can cut away.
        What the whole Brexit fiasco has made clear is that very few people in Britain even thought about Northern Ireland when voting and even fewer cared. The reality is that the best place for the Ulster-Scottish to safeguard their traditions is within a united Ireland. Personally i hate the idea as both tribes in Northern Ireland are trapped in the past but that doesn't change the reality of the situation (or, in Northern Irish "sit-e-at-on").
        "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
        validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
        "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by MarkV View Post

          Freedom of movement between citizens of Ireland and the UK and vice versa is the result of a much older agreement and nothing to do with either the GFA or the EU and therefore changes to the status of either would not affect it
          I'd like to see clarification on that issue as post Brexit it will be a different ballgame between Ireland and the UK.
          "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
          validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
          "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by MarkV View Post

            Freedom of movement between citizens of Ireland and the UK and vice versa is the result of a much older agreement and nothing to do with either the GFA or the EU and therefore changes to the status of either would not affect it
            By what legal mechanism was this freedom of movement between the UK and the Irish Republic established?

            Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
            As long as they don't expect us to take it then they can cut away. . . . . Personally i hate the idea as both tribes in Northern Ireland are trapped in the past . . . .
            You, my friend, are wiser than I previously gave your credit for . . . . When wasn't Northern Ireland just one big friggin' headache?

            Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
            What the whole Brexit fiasco has made clear is that very few people in Britain even thought about Northern Ireland when voting and even fewer cared.
            Maybe most of the English -- and perhaps the Scots and Welsh too -- are fed up with Ulster: the threats, the petulance, the cycles of corruption and violence. Maybe, subliminally, they want to cut Ulster loose. Can't say that I blame 'em . . . .

            Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
            The reality is that the best place for the Ulster-Scottish to safeguard their traditions is within a united Ireland.
            How do you figure? Won't Dublin sicken of 'em just as everyone else has?

            Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
            . . . . but that doesn't change the reality of the situation (or, in Northern Irish "sit-e-at-on").




            Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
            I'd like to see clarification on that issue as post Brexit it will be a different ballgame between Ireland and the UK.
            Yeah, you've got a point. How much can Brexit throw out all kinds of babies with the bath water, metaphorically speaking?
            I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

            Comment


            • #51
              Boris’s increasing lead with the PCP indicates an appetite for a wto exit and a general election. Boris is perceived as standing a better chance in an election than the other candidates. An election would also enable the permanent disposal of the treacherous Florence, Wetwing and Le Marechal.
              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

                By what legal mechanism was this freedom of movement between the UK and the Irish Republic established?
                Common Travel Area (around since 1922).



                Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                How do you figure? Won't Dublin sicken of 'em just as everyone else has?
                Yes, but any reunification agreement with safeguard their identity. It won't be a case of them joining us. It will be a case of a new country being formed. They are welcome as long as they don't bring all their hatred, bigotry, homophobia, racism and religious fundamentalism with them. A large proportion of them would also have to learn to work for a living as they are too busy hating to be productive.

                Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                Yeah, you've got a point. How much can Brexit throw out all kinds of babies with the bath water, metaphorically speaking?
                That's the problem; 3 years on from the Brexit vote and the Brits still have no clue what they actually want. They seem to think they know what they don't want but what they do want, well that's a different story. Actually they have more in common that the Ulster Unionists than I thought.
                They don't want all those EU laws, although I've yet to come across anyone who can list specific laws they have a problem with.
                They don't want immigrants stealing their jobs although most of those jobs are the ones that the locals won't do.
                They don't want unelected bureaucrats in Brussels telling them what to do, although very few seem to understand the structures of the EU or how little power actually resides with those bureaucrats.

                For me this is a good example of the dangers of populism and ill informed people taking strong positions on things they don't fully understand.
                I do accept that there are Brexit supporters who are very well informed. Some of them post here (Gooner for example) and many remainers are equally ill-informed but being ignorant and not making a fundamental change to your country is different to being ignorant and making that change. Forgive me for the cumbersome post; I didn't have time to write a short one.

                "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post





                  Yes, but any reunification agreement with safeguard their identity. It won't be a case of them joining us. It will be a case of a new country being formed. They are welcome as long as they don't bring all their hatred, bigotry, homophobia, racism and religious fundamentalism with them. A large proportion of them would also have to learn to work for a living as they are too busy hating to be productive.



                  On the one hand one is parading as a liberal democrat and lecturing everyone and one is saying, very paternalistically : the people of Ulster are welcome.
                  but on the other hand, one is saying : they are welcome on our conditions, otherwise they must leave Ireland : we are the bosses and we decide who can remain in Ireland .
                  And finally, one is saying : the protestants from Ulster are too lazy, they must learn to work , probably in a reeducation camp, with as headmaster an expert from NK .
                  One thing is certain : a Marxist remains a Marxist . A racist remains a racist . Is it not racist to classify a whole group as people who are too stupid or too lazy to work ?
                  Kipling also said : we must educate this new people,half-devil and half-child ..

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                    Boris’s increasing lead with the PCP indicates an appetite for a wto exit and a general election. Boris is perceived as standing a better chance in an election than the other candidates. An election would also enable the permanent disposal of the treacherous Florence, Wetwing and Le Marechal.
                    Who are Florence, Wetwing and Le Marechal ?

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                      Common Travel Area (around since 1922).
                      Some of the text contained within your link there answers one of your questions.

                      On 8 May 2019, the Irish and UK governments signed a Memorandum of Understanding (pdf) reaffirming the Common Travel Area and identifying the rights and privileges of Irish and UK citizens within the CTA. It also reaffirms the commitment to maintain the CTA following Brexit (pdf).
                      Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                      Yes, but any reunification agreement with safeguard their identity. It won't be a case of them joining us. It will be a case of a new country being formed. They are welcome as long as they don't bring all their hatred, bigotry, homophobia, racism and religious fundamentalism with them. A large proportion of them would also have to learn to work for a living as they are too busy hating to be productive.
                      You mean that grousing and parading and protesting and blowing things up does not count as gainful employment in the Irish Republic?

                      Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                      That's the problem; 3 years on from the Brexit vote and the Brits still have no clue what they actually want. They seem to think they know what they don't want but what they do want, well that's a different story. Actually they have more in common that the Ulster Unionists than I thought.
                      Jesus!

                      Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                      They don't want all those EU laws, although I've yet to come across anyone who can list specific laws they have a problem with.
                      They don't want immigrants stealing their jobs although most of those jobs are the ones that the locals won't do.
                      Where have I heard that line before?

                      Arnulfo Solorio’s desperate mission to recruit farmworkers for the Napa Valley took him far from the pastoral vineyards to a raggedy parking lot in Stockton, in the heart of the Central Valley.

                      Carrying a fat stack of business cards for his company, Silverado Farming, Solorio approached one prospect, a man with only his bottom set of teeth. He told Solorio that farm work in Stockton pays $11 to $12 an hour. Solorio countered: “Look, we are paying $14.50 now, but we are going up to $16.” The man nodded skeptically. . . . .

                      Solorio is one of a growing number of agricultural businessmen who say they face an urgent shortage of workers. The flow of labor began drying up when President Obama tightened the border. Now President Trump is promising to deport more people, raid more companies and build a wall on the southern border.

                      That has made California farms a proving ground for the Trump team’s theory that by cutting off the flow of immigrants they will free up more jobs for American-born workers and push up their wages.

                      So far, the results aren’t encouraging for farmers or domestic workers.

                      Farmers are being forced to make difficult choices about whether to abandon some of the state’s hallmark fruits and vegetables, move operations abroad, import workers under a special visa or replace them altogether with machines.

                      Growers who can afford it have already begun raising worker pay well beyond minimum wage. Wages for crop production in California increased by 13% from 2010 to 2015, twice as fast as average pay in the state, according to a Los Angeles Times analysis of data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. . . . .

                      Today, farmworkers in the state earn about $30,000 a year if they work full time — about half the overall average pay in California. Most work fewer hours.

                      Some farmers are even giving laborers benefits normally reserved for white-collar professionals, like 401(k) plans, health insurance, subsidized housing and profit-sharing bonuses. Full-timers at Silverado Farming, for example, get most of those sweeteners, plus 10 paid vacation days, eight paid holidays, and can earn their hourly rate to take English classes.

                      But the raises and new perks have not tempted native-born Americans to leave their day jobs for the fields. Nine in 10 agriculture workers in California are still foreign born, and more than half are undocumented, according to a federal survey. . . . .

                      "Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don’t want the job," by Natalie Kitroeff and Geoffrey Mohan, Los Angeles Times, 17 Mar 2017
                      " . . . . undocumented workers often work the unpleasant, back-breaking jobs that native-born workers are not willing to do."

                      "Do immigrants “steal” jobs from American workers?" by Brennan Hoban, The Brookings Institute, 24 Aug 2017
                      Figure 1 from their paper compares the quarterly average real farm wages by states where Braceros made up more than 20 percent of their seasonal agricultural labor (black line), states where Braceros were fewer than 20 percent of the workforce (gray line), and states where there were no Braceros at or very negligible numbers (dashed line). Clemens et al write that “[t]he figure shows that pre- and post-exclusion trends in real farm wages are similar in high exposure states and low-exposure states. It also shows that wages in both of those groups rose more slowly after bracero exclusion than wages in states with no exposure to exclusion.”

                      How can that be the case, shouldn’t a leftward shift in labor supply increase wages? Not necessarily as farmers had other options not usually contemplated by those who only think about the supply and demand for labor in isolation. Instead of hiring more American workers or raising their wages, farmers turned to machines and altered the crops they planted to take account of the new dearth of workers. Instead of planting crops that required labor-intensive harvesting or care, they planted other crops that required many fewer workers. Farmers turned to machines like tomato pickers and changed methods for planting and harvesting other crops to take account of the newer wages they would have faced had they stuck with the Bracero-era farm techniques. . . . .

                      "Cutting Legal Immigration Won’t Help Low-Skilled American Workers," by Alex Nowrasteh, The Cato institute, 9 Feb 2017
                      Or if one needs a "real conservative" outlet's view, how about this from News Corp: American Farmers Need Immigration Reform.

                      Why would I be at all surprised if the same kind of patent hypocrisy was the norm elsewhere?

                      Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                      They don't want unelected bureaucrats in Brussels telling them what to do, although very few seem to understand the structures of the EU or how little power actually resides with those bureaucrats.

                      For me this is a good example of the dangers of populism and ill informed people taking strong positions on things they don't fully understand.
                      I do accept that there are Brexit supporters who are very well informed. Some of them post here (Gooner for example) and many remainers are equally ill-informed but being ignorant and not making a fundamental change to your country is different to being ignorant and making that change. Forgive me for the cumbersome post; I didn't have time to write a short one.
                      So democracy is only as good as the brains of the people who participate in it. Got it.
                      I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by ljadw View Post

                        Who are Florence, Wetwing and Le Marechal ?
                        Florence is Rory Stewart. Short for Florence of Arabia with reference to his adventures in the desert.

                        Wet Wing is Letwin due to his being an extreme Wet.

                        And Le Marechal is Grieve as he is French and Uber loyal to the EU.
                        "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Boris Johnson looks like a better leader than May. Hopefully Johnson can finally bring about Brexit.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Merkava188 View Post
                            Boris Johnson looks like a better leader than May. Hopefully Johnson can finally bring about Brexit.
                            Unfortunately neither of these is a good recommendation. Even Sir Les Patterson would have made a better leader and to achieve Brexit only requires masterly inactivity - the problem is achieving one that doesn't do major damage.

                            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Mark,

                              Good Friday Agreement is not about freedom of movement alone. It define citizens rights based on the ECHR :

                              "It also provides that the governance arrangements in Northern Ireland will include human rights protections based on the European Convention on Human Rights (‘the ECHR’). A Human Rights Commission is established, with the role (among others) of developing proposals for a Northern Ireland Bill of Rights to supplement the ECHR. The North-South dimension provides that human rights protected in Ireland (including socioeconomic rights, such as labour and employment rights) will be equivalent to those in Northern Ireland, that Ireland would incorporate the ECHR into Irish law, that there would be a joint committee of the Northern Ireland and Irish human rights commissions, and that an all-Ireland Charter of Rights would be produced."

                              https://www.thebritishacademy.ac.uk/...tandRights.pdf

                              As I understand this text, in case of Brexit, UK/NI would not longer to be abide by ECHR and EU ruling.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

                                Some of the text contained within your link there answers one of your questions.
                                Except we have a long history with Tory governments changing their minds and not abiding by the spirit of their agreements with us. That's why when the British government came up with the Backstop, which would actually guarantee free movement between Ireland and Northern Ireland, the Irish government took that as one of their red lines. The resulting debate (if it can be called that) in Westminster shows just what a Memorandum of Understanding with the UK is worth.




                                Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

                                You mean that grousing and parading and protesting and blowing things up does not count as gainful employment in the Irish Republic?
                                No, that's a UK problem. When their civil war spilled over into Ireland we did help them sort it out but that sort of tribalistic bigotry and terrorism is confined to that part of the UK although the worst terrorist attack in the 30 years of their civil war did take place in Ireland, perpetrated by Loyalist terrorists.
                                Anyway, post Brexit our moderating influence will wain and they can get back to business as usual, just like the DUP want and the Brexiteers are happy to let happen.


                                "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                                validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                                "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                                Comment

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