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  • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
    You repeat what I was saying : Morel is wrong by saying that the citizens of NI are Irish .
    No, that was the whole point of the, "Troubles."

    One side are British Citizens, and have committed mass murder to remain so (these are the people that Westminster is set to abandon).

    The other side want to be Irish, and have committed mass murder in the pursuit of this.

    Actually getting the two sides to agree to talk to each other was a diplomatic miracle, which is about to be thrown out of the window by Brexit.
    Indyref2 - still, "Yes."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

      Cornwall, Jersey, Guernsey, Man, Wight -- you can't blame a fellow if the status of some of those "principalities" gets a tad confusing. A few years back I had to wire money to a client in Jersey, and for the love of God I didn't know if their bank in the Channel Islands was considered to be in the "United Kingdom," or some other jurisdiction. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Channel Islands' parliament refer to Queen Elizabeth as "notre duc"? Not duchess, and not in English.
      The Channel Islands are part of the Duke of Normandy's territories and as HM is the last 'Duke of Normandy' they are under the British Crown but not part of the UK. In happier times a significant part of France was in the same condition only then it was the English crown. In 1814 parts of France petitioned to return to that status.
      Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
      Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MarkV View Post

        The Channel Islands are part of the Duke of Normandy's territories and as HM is the last 'Duke of Normandy' they are under the British Crown but not part of the UK. In happier times a significant part of France was in the same condition only then it was the English crown. In 1814 parts of France petitioned to return to that status.
        Those Froggies are a mercurial bunch, aren't they. . . . So which parts of France petitioned to be subject to the British Crown?

        Back to the point ED Morel made a week or so ago (forgive my tardiness, but I was visiting my sister in California) some of the stipulations of the Good Friday Agreement, in order to ensure ratification by the Republic of Ireland and acceptance by Irish republican militants like Sinn Fein/PIRA, had to become enshrined in the UK's constitution, stipulations like free travel across the border for Irish, Northern Irish, and British citizens, etc. A hard Brexit may harden the border, thus contradicting and/or invalidating the constitutional aspects of the Good Friday Agreement. (My apologies for not grasping that earlier, but surely I can be forgiven my Silly Septic-ness. ) This may be where the informal nature of the UK's constitution works in her disfavor. In order to reverse a previous constitutional amendment, in the US we'd pass another constitutional amendment, ie the XXI Amendment repealed the XVIII Amendment regarding the Prohibition of alcohol. Anyways, for whatever it's worth, here's Wikipedia's take on the subject:

        As part of the [Good Friday Agreement], the British parliament repealed the Government of Ireland Act 1920 (which had established Northern Ireland, partitioned Ireland and asserted a territorial claim over all of Ireland) and the people of the Republic of Ireland amended Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution of Ireland, which asserted a territorial claim over Northern Ireland.

        In its white paper on Brexit, the United Kingdom government reiterated its commitment to the Belfast Agreement. With regard to Northern Ireland's status, it said that the UK Government's "clearly-stated preference is to retain Northern Ireland's current constitutional position: as part of the UK, but with strong links to Ireland".
        Since the Irish government was party to the GFA, from the UK's point of view the GFA constitutes both a constitutional amendment and a binding treaty with a foreign power. (I've found links detailing the GFA referendum in both Ulster and the Irish Republic, but to this point I've found nothing about GFA ratification by Westminster. How was that effected?) So how does Westminster honor the Brexit referendum without abrogating its treaty obligation and violating its own constitution simultaneously? Am I summarizing the conundrum reasonably accurately?
        I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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        • Free travel across the border existed long before the GFA as I can personalty testify. Indeed until Ireland exited from the Commonwealth it had always been there apart from some war time limitations - loosely applied. Many of the customs type restrictions on goods etc were created as the Republic drifted into a sort of Celtic catholic twilight and maintained some old standards whilst everyone else changed. I was doing some work in Dublin when Ireland joined the Common Market and this was something of a cathartic shock that blew lot of this away. If we could go back to sometime in the mid 1920s most of the back stop issues would vanish - but this is probably politically impossible.
          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

          Comment


          • The Act of Union 1707 was between the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland.

            Wales, Cornwall etc were part of England.
            "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

            Comment


            • I'm more and more convinced that my earlier opinion that the best option for the UK would be to revoke the article 50 is still accurate regardless if the UK would eventually want to actually go through Brexit or Remain. What i mean is that the EU will stand by the Irish border issue - there is no getting around that. So for an actual Brexit to occur a tangible solution for that issue would need to be found. None of the prospects (not just the last 2 but the whole bunch) for the Conservative Leadership position seems to be openly acknowledging this.

              Mind you - I'm not saying that the UK would need to give up all its plans with regards to the Brexit even if it revoked the article 50 for now. Just that it would be in far better position globally as well as in relation with the EU by revoking than ending up with the backstop or ending up with terms similar to the backstop by crashing out of the EU without any deals and then trying to get the EU to agree with something. And use that time - instead of just some vague political speeches - by starting to seriously work on those 'alternative solutions'. The main problem really is that the decision for doing that ought to have been done couple of years back - preferably even before invoking article 50 to be quite honest. What i mean is that by now damage is already done to the UK reputation, economy and so on even if the article 50 would be revoked. Apart from that I'm not quite sure what any of the prospects for the Conservative Leadership position would be able to achieve in this matter.
              It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

              Comment


              • Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                Free travel across the border existed long before the GFA as I can personalty testify. Indeed until Ireland exited from the Commonwealth it had always been there apart from some war time limitations - loosely applied. Many of the customs type restrictions on goods etc were created as the Republic drifted into a sort of Celtic catholic twilight and maintained some old standards whilst everyone else changed. I was doing some work in Dublin when Ireland joined the Common Market and this was something of a cathartic shock that blew lot of this away. If we could go back to sometime in the mid 1920s most of the back stop issues would vanish - but this is probably politically impossible.
                I've seen that sort of reply to the GFA question plenty of times before but it doesn't address the issue. Brexit will, for the first time, put the UK and Ireland on different sides of customs and trade barriers. For the first time it will not be possible to maintain a formal or informal open borders policy. It is the UK and the UK alone which has created this scenario.
                "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                Comment


                • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                  I've seen that sort of reply to the GFA question plenty of times before but it doesn't address the issue. Brexit will, for the first time, put the UK and Ireland on different sides of customs and trade barriers. For the first time it will not be possible to maintain a formal or informal open borders policy. It is the UK and the UK alone which has created this scenario.
                  For the first time - really? Rubbish there were customs posts before Ireland joined the Common Market and sometime quite complex rules. People could cross easily but goods not always. I once had to work on a container tracking system for CIE and some containers for a depot in Donegal went up from Dublin and passed through Northern Ireland and back into Ireland and the only way that could happen was if the containers were sealed and bonded otherwise they would be opened at the border and the contents checked.
                  Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                  Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                    For the first time - really? Rubbish there were customs posts before Ireland joined the Common Market and sometime quite complex rules. People could cross easily but goods not always. I once had to work on a container tracking system for CIE and some containers for a depot in Donegal went up from Dublin and passed through Northern Ireland and back into Ireland and the only way that could happen was if the containers were sealed and bonded otherwise they would be opened at the border and the contents checked.
                    You are correct, my omission. There was always free movement of people and free movement of goods since 1993. In reality the customs checks were of a very limited nature for most of that time as, crucially, it was just the UK and Ireland in the mix they could in essence pay lip service to the notion of customs checks. Putting checks in place for large transits of goods being moved by train isn't what will cause problems. It is people making deliveries and going about their day to day lives. There are trucks which collect milk from dairy farmers that cross the border a dozen or more times in a single day. That sort of thing will be impossible post-Brexit.

                    I drove across the border many times in the 1980s and on a weekly basis in the early 90's and I was never stopped at a customs post.
                    When the UK leaves the EU it will no longer be possible for Ireland and the UK to maintain the Common Travel Area as it will be the border between the UK and the EU.

                    There has always been free movement of people between the UK and Ireland. That will end with Brexit as Ireland will still be within the EU and so have free travel with other EU States.

                    Northern Ireland is an economic basket case and has always been a social and political basket case. Brexit will isolate it further and nobody in the Tory party seems to care.
                    Last edited by E.D. Morel; 28 Jun 19, 06:56.
                    "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                    validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                    "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                    Comment


                    • https://www.conservativehome.com/the...ready-won.html

                      Based on the above poll of Conservative voters Boris has already won. The proportion reporting to have already voted Boris is sufficient to guarantee him a majority.

                      Would be best for Hunt to concede now so that Boris can stop Mays scorched earth policies before she does anymore damage.
                      "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                        Would be best for Hunt to concede now so that Boris can stop Mays scorched earth policies before she does anymore damage.
                        Well it would have been "better" no doubt if Boris had taken the PMship before May at all.

                        But that's been your problem for 3 years now, for every Brit trying to effect Brexit, there's another looking to counter it

                        High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
                        Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                          https://www.conservativehome.com/the...ready-won.html

                          Based on the above poll of Conservative voters Boris has already won. The proportion reporting to have already voted Boris is sufficient to guarantee him a majority.

                          Would be best for Hunt to concede now so that Boris can stop Mays scorched earth policies before she does anymore damage.
                          Not really, one reason for May's insecurity was that she had not been elected because the other candidates had withdrawn and she therefore lacked authority.
                          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

                            Well it would have been "better" no doubt if Boris had taken the PMship before May at all.

                            But that's been your problem for 3 years now, for every Brit trying to effect Brexit, there's another looking to counter it
                            It would have been much better for Boris to have taken power immediately after the Referendum. But he was not ready for it and was stabbed in the back by Gove.
                            "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                              It would have been much better for Boris to have taken power immediately after the Referendum. But he was not ready for it and was stabbed in the back by Gove.
                              Taken power - like a dictator you mean? Heil Boris? True colours revealed - although I suspect an Italian balcony more his true style
                              Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                              Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                                Not really, one reason for May's insecurity was that she had not been elected because the other candidates had withdrawn and she therefore lacked authority.
                                May was insecure because she was incompetent and she was trying to do something that she did not believe in and thus failed abysmally. All May is about is virtue signalling. May was just a public sector middle manager with no leadership ability.
                                The leader after the Referendum should have been one of the leaders of the Leave campaign. It looks now that that will be rectified and we can move forward again. Cometh the hour, cometh the man.
                                "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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