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  • Originally posted by ljadw View Post

    You are wrong : a Coalition of Cameronites and Labour could have made possible a soft Brexit . May asked the help from Labour to male a soft Brexit possible, but Corbyn refused .
    .
    What planet are you on? It was the hard-line Brexiteers who blocked EVERY option that was not a complete break from every EU institution/treaty. If it was not for mad Jacob it would be a done deal by now. I think your problem is the one mentioned earlier. You want a deal that fits all your conditions, that gives no ground to those you call 'traitors' (traitors = anyone who does not agree with you) and you are not prepared to compromise on anything because you know that you are absolutely right about everything.

    Comment


    • The people wanted Brexit . There is still no Brexit, although a soft Brexit was possible : Labour said that it would support a soft Brexit . The Cameronites said the same . Together they had the majority .
      Why is there still no Brexit ?
      Very simple : because Labour and the Cameronites lied : they never had the intention to support a soft Brexit, but their plan was to delay, delay everything, hoping that policies delayed are policies denied,that procrastination is the thief of time .And they are successful til today .
      Cameron did not accept the outcome of the referendum, but his supporters remained in the government as a Trojan Horse .

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
        The people wanted Brexit . There is still no Brexit, although a soft Brexit was possible : Labour said that it would support a soft Brexit . The Cameronites said the same . Together they had the majority .
        Why is there still no Brexit ?
        Because Jacob Rees-Mogg and the fruitcakes blocked any 'Brexit' that did not meet his extreme demands. Conservative Party Unity came first so Mrs May wasted her time trying to pacify them when in fact there was no way they were ever going to compromise. I watched a TV show where this was being discussed and Esther McVey was there . One Labour MP was talking about the latest 'demand' from Jacob that was causing problems. He then said it did not matter if Mrs May caved in to the latest demand because if she did Jacob would just make another demand to continue to wreck things. He turned to Esther and asked her if she got her way on the latest demand would she then go forward with that Brexit or would she then just make other demands. She blustered and rambled but she never went anywhere near answering the question. It was obvious that she was only interested in making problems rather than solving them.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by m kenny View Post
          What planet are you on? It was the hard-line Brexiteers who blocked EVERY option that was not a complete break from every EU institution/treaty. If it was not for mad Jacob it would be a done deal by now. I think your problem is the one mentioned earlier. You want a deal that fits all your conditions, that gives no ground to those you call 'traitors' (traitors = anyone who does not agree with you) and you are not prepared to compromise on anything because you know that you are absolutely right about everything.
          You can't read .
          2015 : official pro soft Brexit : Labour : 232 + big number of Conservatives ,which means an easy majority for a soft Brexit . Official majority is 326 . If needed Green,Liberals and SNP would help to have a soft Brexit .
          2017 : officially pro soft Brexit : Labour 262 + a big number of Conservatives, the majority would even be easier .And again Greens, Liberals and SNP would/could help .
          If Corbyn had proposed May to help her for a soft Brexit, the hardliners in the Conservative party could not block a soft Brexit .
          Even today 10 Conservatives have voted against Brexit and Hammond had said that he would vote against the new PM if he wanted a no-deal Brexit .
          The Guardian of May 27: Conservative MPs have warned that they will bring down any PM backing a no-deal Brexit .
          These MPs are NOT against a no-deal Brexit ,they are against all kind of Brexit .
          The government has a majority of 3 , if 3 Conservatives vote against a no-deal Brexit, it is over . And if there is no no-deal Brexit, there will be no soft Brexit, no Brino .
          The opponents of Brexit never had the intention to accept the decision of the British people .

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ljadw View Post

            You can't read .
            I can. The problem is you can't understand.
            Forget party lines. The problem is a group of people who are prepared to wreck the Conservative Party and if need be wreck the Country in their quest for a 'pure' Brexit.
            Mrs May spent all her time trying to placate those who would never be placated. She should have ditched them early on and that was her fatal mistake.
            I also note that you struggle to understand that opposition to a 'No Deal' Brexit is not the same as opposition to Brexit.



            Comment


            • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

              It's good to see a Brexiteer back who is knowledgeable on the topic. I do think your use of the word traitors very loaded. Since when is someone who disagrees with a particular policy within a democratic party a traitor? I know there's a lot of emotion around Brexit but that's when moderation and reason are most important.
              Get a grip.
              I have never pretended to be neutral on the topic so have no need to use neutral terms.
              I use the term 'traitor' appropriately in this case as they are working with the main opposition party to frustrate the policies of their own party. That meets the definition of a traitor.
              No party leader can allow a faction to exist in their own party that openly seeks to bring about that Party's downfall. Hence they should be expelled in the most expedient manner.
              I am not however suggesting that the ten who tried to make it impossible for us to leave the EU today be taken to Tower Hill to have their heads removed and mounted on spikes on London Bridge!
              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

              Comment


              • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

                And that, my Gaelic friend, will be the downfall of small-d democracy as we know it: this all-or-nothing approach to 'most any policy question at hand. Nuance is veritably a four-letter word these days, and the notion of "compromise" is downright vulgar. "You're either with us or against us." What kind of mass-participatory civil society can function under such a paradigm? Ancient Athens so twisted herself into irreconcilable camps -- when Alcibiades led a Spartan army into Attica. The Roman Republic so imploded -- when Sulla took to torturing senators who doubted the legality or the desirability of his dictatorship. Our freedoms aren't being taken by our political class: we're giving them away -- with both hands. If I confess to being fearful of the future, I'm understating my apprehension geometrically.
                What risks bringing down democracy are those within Parliament and elsewhere who seek to overturn the democratically expressed will of the people.
                There are consequences in seeking to subvert democracy.
                May's actions in blocking Brexit have created the Brexit Party. In a matter of months TBP went from nothing to being the largest party at the recent European Elections.
                Using your Roman republican analogy MPs are acting like senators, believing that they are better than the Plebs and that they have a divine right to rule. If they continue to defy the people then they risk a Caesar.

                Actually you have got your analogy mixed up. If you remember Sulla was about protecting and maintaining the power of the establishment against new lower class upstarts such as Marius. Thus in present day terms he represents the EU and their supporters.
                It is Caesar who represents the frustrated will of the people and thus those who wish to break away from EU rule.
                Last edited by Surrey; 12 Jun 19, 16:28.
                "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                Comment


                • Originally posted by m kenny View Post

                  I can. The problem is you can't understand.
                  Forget party lines. The problem is a group of people who are prepared to wreck the Conservative Party and if need be wreck the Country in their quest for a 'pure' Brexit.
                  Mrs May spent all her time trying to placate those who would never be placated. She should have ditched them early on and that was her fatal mistake.
                  I also note that you struggle to understand that opposition to a 'No Deal' Brexit is not the same as opposition to Brexit.


                  Opposition to no deal Brexit is opposition to Brexit .There was theoretically a majority for a soft Brexit/ a Brino . The supporters of no-deal Brexit were only a minority (last year 400 MPs voted against a no-deal Brexit ,only 200 voted for ), nothing prevented the 400 opponents of no deal Brexit to propose a soft Brexit,the 200 opponents could not stop them .
                  This did not happen, for the simple reason that the 400 were not opponents of no deal Brexit, but opponents of every form of Brexit .
                  Those that refused no deal Brexit but refused to propose / support an other form of Brexit are principal opponents of Brexit .
                  Corbyn could have made a soft Brexit possible,he didn't .For obvious reasons .

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                    Get a grip.
                    I have never pretended to be neutral on the topic so have no need to use neutral terms.
                    I use the term 'traitor' appropriately in this case as they are working with the main opposition party to frustrate the policies of their own party. That meets the definition of a traitor.
                    No party leader can allow a faction to exist in their own party that openly seeks to bring about that Party's downfall. Hence they should be expelled in the most expedient manner.
                    I am not however suggesting that the ten who tried to make it impossible for us to leave the EU today be taken to Tower Hill to have their heads removed and mounted on spikes on London Bridge!
                    Is a no deal Brexit the policy of the Conservative Party?
                    "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                    validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                    "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                      The people wanted Brexit.
                      51% of "the people" as I recall….

                      Everything else follows from that.

                      If you lock ten people in a room, and 5 want to stay, 1 wants to leave by the front door, 1 wants to leave by the back door and 3 want to climb out of a window onto the balcony, the chances of all 10 of them making an orderly and timely exit are small.

                      That's what you see here.
                      Last edited by Snowygerry; 13 Jun 19, 03:12.
                      High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

                        51% of "the people" as I recall….

                        Everything else follows from that.

                        If you lock ten people in a room, and 5 want to stay, 1 wants to leave by the front door, 1 wants to leave by the back door and 3 want to climb out of a window onto the balcony, the chances of all 10 of them making an orderly and timely exit are small.



                        That's what you see here.
                        And to take your analogy further those who want to leave the room demand that they stay just as dry and warm as if they stayed inside.

                        And BTW it wasn't 51 or 52 % of the people it was 52% of the people who voted. There was no absolute majority for leaving. Normal political conventions suggest that major constitutional change is only made on an absolute majority but as the referendum was purely 'advisory' this was not applied
                        Last edited by MarkV; 13 Jun 19, 05:03.
                        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                          And to take your analogy further those who want to leave the room demand that they stay just as dry and warm as if they stayed inside.

                          And BTW it wasn't 51 or 52 % of the people it was 52% of the people who voted. There was no absolute majority for leaving. Normal political conventions suggest that major constitutional change is only made on an absolute majority but as the referendum was purely 'advisory' this was not applied
                          That may lead to an uncomfortable question: what percentage of the UK's eligible voters participated in the Brexit referendum?
                          I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

                            That may lead to an uncomfortable question: what percentage of the UK's eligible voters participated in the Brexit referendum?
                            72% if I recall correctly.
                            "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                            validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                            "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                              There was no absolute majority for leaving. Normal political conventions suggest that major constitutional change is only made on an absolute majority but as the referendum was purely 'advisory' this was not applied
                              Guess not everyone over there was fully aware of that then.…

                              Edit, It seems there was a "promise" by Cameron that "the result would stick"

                              https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ign-parliament

                              A shame that Cameron himself didn't stick

                              High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

                                Guess not everyone over there was fully aware of that then.…

                                Edit, It seems there was a "promise" by Cameron that "the result would stick"

                                https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ign-parliament

                                A shame that Cameron himself didn't stick
                                To mix a few metaphors, the rats had manned the lifeboats long before the rest of the passengers know the ship was sinking.
                                "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                                validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                                "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                                Comment

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