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Bloody Sunday soldier to face murder charges

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  • #61
    Originally posted by m kenny View Post
    Indeed.
    Firing indiscriminately into a group of unarmed protesters is no big deal. They were all probably members of the cowardly IRA anyway.
    There was nothing indiscriminate about it. The youngest person killed was 17, the oldest 41. All were male. That certainly doesn't fit the profile of the civil rights marchers.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Hop View Post
      There was nothing indiscriminate about it. The youngest person killed was 17, the oldest 41. All were male. That certainly doesn't fit the profile of the civil rights marchers.
      The verdict has been given. None of the protesters was armed and thus could not have fired at the soldiers. It follows that any of them shot by the soldiers was 'indiscriminately' killed.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Hop View Post
        There was nothing indiscriminate about it. The youngest person killed was 17, the oldest 41. All were male. That certainly doesn't fit the profile of the civil rights marchers.
        That is what can only be called 'economical with the actualité'.

        The key word is 'killed'. If we substitute 'shot' instead then it is untruthful. 2 men in their 50's (52 & 59)were shot (one of whom died later of his wounds) and a woman of 37 was shot


        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by m kenny View Post

          The verdict has been given. None of the protesters was armed and thus could not have fired at the soldiers. It follows that any of them shot by the soldiers was 'indiscriminately' killed.
          It's not indiscriminate if the soldiers shot people they believed were posing a threat. At least some of those shot were throwing stones (which could equally have been blast bombs, that the IRA were known to use).

          The key word is 'killed'. If we substitute 'shot' instead then it is untruthful. 2 men in their 50's (52 & 59)were shot (one of whom died later of his wounds) and a woman of 37 was shot
          I'm not sure about the 52 year old man (do you have his name?). The woman hit was not the intended target according to Saville. The 59 year old man was hit by bullet fragments (probably from a richochet) and he did not die from his wounds. He was hit by the fragments in the leg and shoulder and grazed his hand. He died 6 months later from a brain tumour (Saville concluded he did not die as a result of the injuries sustained on Bloody Sunday).

          Comment


          • #65
            https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/events/bsunday/deadinj.htm


            As for the quibbling it is all moot. Police have decided there is a murder case to answer and its going to court. Do you think the IRA have infiltrated the UK Police?

            Comment


            • #66
              54525035_2225583601024779_1036919557542903808_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-2.fna&oh=0ebc406e2a7dafb7c41e36458a92583d&oe=5D14FB6A.jpg
              The long toll of the brave
              Is not lost in darkness
              Over the fruitful earth
              And athwart the seas
              Hath passed the light of noble deeds
              Unquenchable forever.

              Comment


              • #67
                The UK has a long history of covering up atrocities carried out by it's soldiers and agents in its colonies, even the colonies it planted. Those cover-ups have done more damage than the atrocities themselves. Thankfully enough British people have enough honour and decency to find both the atrocities and the cover-ups abhorrent. Occasionally one of those decent people slips through the net and actually gets into a position of power.
                Then there are the old establishment who resent the commoners and the plebs having a say or a hand in how their country is run and they trot out some imperialistic, jingoistic nonsense to get the blood up and the thinking down amongst the plebs so that they will toe the line. I see some of those latter-day "useful idiots" posting here.
                "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                Comment


                • #68
                  I wonder when the Irish who set off bombs, maintained safehouses, smuggled hardware intyo NI, and all the other terrorist scum will have to answer for what they did?

                  Apparently the Irish are no more able to maintain the standards of civilization than ISIS...
                  Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by BF69 View Post

                    There is another rational explanation - a member of a conquered people and a failed culture who desperately wants to identify with his conquerors, lashing out at people who actually had the spine to fight their conquerors for centuries and centuries until they gained their independence.

                    Read enough posts and you see the pattern - side with the powerful, deride the powerless. I am reluctant to judge because my people had the guts to keep fighting or at least establish new lives with greater freedom. I can't imagine what it must be like living in the ruins of a once proud culture. What might that do to a person?
                    I thought that post was a bit harsh at first but the more I read of poor Arnold's delusional and bigoted posts the more I agree with you. We should view him with pity, not scorn. I now realise that he just doesn't understand most of what is being written here by other posters and so defaults to the same moronic ranting.

                    He's reminds me of the guy in The Life of Brian who is chained to the wall shouting about how wonderful the Romans are.

                    "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                    validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                    "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Silly offensive cartoon aside I think there is a large element of throwing one squaddy to the lions so that the people who gave the orders but never faced fire in their lives can remain untouched.
                      "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                      validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                      "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                        Silly offensive cartoon aside I think there is a large element of throwing one squaddy to the lions so that the people who gave the orders but never faced fire in their lives can remain untouched.
                        The orders were to arrest rioters.

                        Londonderry had become a war zone. From the Saville inquiry:

                        Meanwhile, in the period between 4th July
                        and 13th December, the security forces had suffered 22 casualties infmicted by gunmen,
                        seven of them fatal, from 380 confjrmed shooting incidents. A total of 1,932 rounds had
                        been fjred at them, with 364 in reply, and 1,741lb of explosives had been used in 211
                        explosions, in addition to a further 180 recorded nail bomb incidents. At the time General
                        Ford wrote, there were 29 barricades in existence, 16 of which were impassable to 1 ton
                        armoured vehicles.


                        and

                        In Londonderry there were a number of Army casualties from republican paramilitary
                        activities between September and November 1971. On 2nd September Major Robin
                        Alers-Hankey was shot (and eventually died on Bloody Sunday) while deploying his
                        troops to protect fjremen who were being attacked by stone throwers as they tried to deal
                        with a blaze at a timber yard at the junction of Abbey Street and Frederick Street in the
                        Bogside. 1 On 14th September Sergeant Martin Carroll was shot dead outside Bligh’s
                        Lane Army and police post. 2 On 27th September Private Roger Wilkins was mortally
                        wounded by machine gun fjre while on duty in the Brandywell area of the city. 3 On
                        16th October Rifmeman Joseph Hill was shot and killed as he stood in Columbcille Court
                        in the Bogside after following up rioters. 4 On 27th October Gunner Angus Stevens and
                        Lance Bombardier David Tilbury were killed by a bomb attack on an Observation Post at
                        the back of the police station in the Rosemount area of the city, which lay to the north of
                        the Creggan. 5 On 9th November Lance Corporal Ian Curtis was mortally wounded by
                        gunfjre near the junction of Foyle Road and Bishop Street while on patrol.

                        and

                        In addition, rioting by youths in the city had become almost ritualised. 1 There were regular
                        riots on Saturday afternoons, the “Saturday matinées”, which usually took place at the
                        corner of Rossville Street and William Street, a junction that became known to soldiers
                        and others as Aggro Corner.
                        2 There were also frequent riots on other days, 3 including on
                        Sunday afternoons after the televised football match.
                        Although one witness described the rioting as “a kind of play ”, which he told us the
                        soldiers enjoyed as much as the rioters, 1 there is little doubt that it was serious and gave
                        rise to serious injury. 2 According to Army sources, groups of boys and young men
                        gathered to throw stones, bottles and other objects at the soldiers standing behind
                        barriers. The soldiers would fjre rubber bullets and sometimes attempt to snatch rioters
                        from the crowd, but with little success. 3 On occasion paramilitaries would use these riots
                        or their aftermath as an opportunity to snipe at soldiers (as appears to have been the
                        case with the shooting of Rifmeman Hill and Major Alers-Hankey mentioned above) or to
                        throw nail or petrol bombs. 4 We have little doubt that had the crowd isolated a soldier, it is
                        likely that he would have been killed. 5 In short, the rioting often carried with it the risk to
                        soldiers of serious injury or even death.


                        The soldiers on Bloody Sunday were operating on a battlefield. The responsibility for the casualties lies with the terrorists who had deliberately turned the city into a war zone.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Hop View Post



                          The soldiers on Bloody Sunday were operating on a battlefield. The responsibility for the casualties lies with the terrorists who had deliberately turned the city into a war zone.
                          It was not a battlefield and it is an absurd excuse. A few out-of-control soldiers shot innocent protesters at random. At least one of the criminals is to face trial for his sins. We can huff and we can puff but there will be a trial. Justice may not be served but we are surely going to hear some very uncomfortable facts about how the Army operated at this time.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Hop View Post
                            The soldiers on Bloody Sunday were operating on a battlefield. The responsibility for the casualties lies with the terrorists who had deliberately turned the city into a war zone.
                            They were asking for it, is that what you are saying?
                            Because the IRA was murdering people it made it okay for the British Army to murder civilians?
                            If that's the case did Bloody Sunday make it okay for the IRA to murder people after the 30th of January 1972?


                            The Para's were operating on their own soil in a quasi-policing role for which they had no training. They were being deployed by officers who had no training in policing or management of civil unrest. If policing in Derry was commanded by the London Metropolitan Police there would have been no Bloody Sunday. The problem was that the army was piggy in the middle between an utterly sectarian police force and local government which was an extension of Loyalist paramilitaries and politicians who were seeking to ethnically cleanse areas of Derry and Belfast, which was seeking to use the army to maintain what was effectively an apartheid system. On the other side was a Nationalist/Catholic population who were totally disenfranchised and rightly saw the local government as an instrument of oppression and the national (UK) government as complicit in that oppression as well as civil rights activists and the IRA.

                            Remember that the Ballymurphy massacre was quite recent in the minds of the Nationalists, as were many other mass burnings of whole streets of houses in Nationalist areas by Loyalist paramilitaries with the active support, an in some cases participation, of the RUC.

                            Derry was not a war zone, just like England during the Brixton riots wasn't a war zone and England and Wales during the Miners Strikes weren't war zones. There was major civil unrest, there were riots and there were terrorists but ultimately the function of the Para's was not to open fire on unarmed civilians and that is exactly what they did. They were a bunch of badly led, badly trained kids with guns. It was a disaster waiting to happen.
                            At a command level the British Army was actively involved in terrorism, training, arming and supporting Loyalist Terrorists and in some cases participating in Loyalist Terrorist attacks. Some initial reading here.

                            I'll say again; if the Parachute Regiment has shot 28 people, killing 14 of them, in London there would have been a completely different reaction by the British government, British Press and British people.



                            "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                            validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                            "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by m kenny View Post

                              It was not a battlefield and it is an absurd excuse. A few out-of-control soldiers shot innocent protesters at random. At least one of the criminals is to face trial for his sins. We can huff and we can puff but there will be a trial. Justice may not be served but we are surely going to hear some very uncomfortable facts about how the Army operated at this time.
                              Much of the collusion between the British Army and security forces is a matter of record.
                              It wasn't called the Dirty War for nothing.
                              "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                              validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                              "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                                Much of the collusion between the British Army and security forces is a matter of record.
                                It wasn't called the Dirty War for nothing.
                                Good point.
                                What gets forgotten in the cover ups is that the Stormont parliament sucked the British army into, in 1969, supporting it's bash down of the Paddies.

                                What kind of Idiotic mindset bans Catholic Rights protests, THEN let's a bunch of dolts In frock coats and derby hats March their BANNER PARADES THROUGH
                                Bogside - because it's ' traditional'???

                                The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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