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Bloody Sunday soldier to face murder charges

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  • #46
    Originally posted by m kenny View Post

    I can tell you that there have been a number of TV investigations 'over the years' and information that contradicted the 'Official' account was always available. It was considered a crime 'at the time' but it was covered up. I remember one investigation which had interviews with a number of soldiers from the Regiment (still have it on an old Philips N1700 VCR tape)and it was clear that a number of the shooters were believed to have been out of control with accounts confirming some soldiers carried extra ammunition that they did not have to account for after the shootings. Only an idiot (or in this case a troll) who knows nothing of the history of the cover-ups would claim it 'wasn't considered a crime at the time'
    Common thing in NI to carry what were known as 'buckshee rounds', as a squadie had to account for every single shot he may have fired. The cover up was a tad gormless too... piccys of shot Paddys being loaded into vehicles to go to hospital, and arriving with a nail bomb in every pocket.

    The long toll of the brave
    Is not lost in darkness
    Over the fruitful earth
    And athwart the seas
    Hath passed the light of noble deeds
    Unquenchable forever.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

      Not a very erudite response.
      Is that the best you can do?
      Promise I'll try harder next time. Seems from the petition that there's a fair few in Blighty, think that Para is getting scapegoated.

      The long toll of the brave
      Is not lost in darkness
      Over the fruitful earth
      And athwart the seas
      Hath passed the light of noble deeds
      Unquenchable forever.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Von Richter View Post

        Promise I'll try harder next time. Seems from the petition that there's a fair few in Blighty, think that Para is getting scapegoated.
        Sure, but based on what evidence?
        Either soldiers are subject to the law or they are not. Especially on their own soil when not at war.

        Does anyone think that if British soldiers had shot 28 unarmed civilians in London none of them would have faced charges?

        The victims were, under UK law, as British as people in London. The cover up really highlighted that the British establishment didnít consider the Nationalist as British as the Unionists or those who actually lived in Britain.
        "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
        validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
        "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Von Richter View Post

          Promise I'll try harder next time. Seems from the petition that there's a fair few in Blighty, think that Para is getting scapegoated.
          It's not limited to Great Britain.

          The Irish never had the balls to face the British Army. Nail bombs in cafes were more their speed.

          They were the Al Q of their generation.

          It took them 47 years to summon up the courage to try and go after a single British soldier....

          After 47 years there's no way a man gets a fair trial. Witnesses are dead, investigating officers are long since retired and a lot will be dead. The defense can't submit evidence to nonpartisan forensic sources. I expect most of the officers, and certainly those of command rank, of the military structure are deceased.

          Its a sham trial.

          If what was done that day was really a crime it would have been tried in a timely fashion. But it wasn't a crime, just an unfortunate incident.

          I find it amusing that the Irish, who see terrorism as 'heroes', flail about like a hysterical child because a few people they ignored the day before, of a type they have ignored since, got unlucky.

          This ex-soldier is what, in his late 60s? Even if he's found guilty by some obscene travesty of justice, he'll serve a misdemeanor sentence.

          That, in a way, would be a fitting tribute to the lives lost that day: they mattered about as much as passing a very small bad check.

          Of course, in the unlikely chance this ex-soldier actually gets a fair trial in accordance with the rule of law and the full standards of evidence, and is found not guilty, then the final verdict on those lives lost will be: no harm done.

          Either way, the end result will be to strip the event of its importance.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
            ? Even if he's found guilty by some obscene travesty of justice, he'll serve a misdemeanor sentence.

            There is only one sentence for murder, life imprisonment. I doubt he will be convicted but the evidence that will be revealed in court will destroy the credibility those (not you as you have no credibility to begin with) who claim no crime was committed. The Army's dirty washing will be aired.
            On a serious note I find it incredible that some still fail to grasp the significance of Bloody Sunday. It is 'The' key event in the troubles and it spawned 25 years of incredible violence from both sides. It destroyed any hope the Army was impartial and was the best recruiting office the IRA could have wished for. Anyone thinking they can just shrug it off as '**** happens' is so deluded as to border on insane. It really was the turning point and it was directly responsible for all that followed.

            Comment


            • #51
              As a complete outsider, since my family left nearly 3 centuries ago, I find this whole affair to be a disgrace and a sham. For the following reasons:

              1) It was 47 years ago, so this isn't about justice, it's about vengeance. Those responsible have long since been known, and nothing done for decades.

              2) A single Squaddie is being charged. Kind of like claiming 'justice' for the trail of tears by hanging a trooper riding in the vanguard of the escort force. You want justice, you go after those responsible.....but since those people are long since dead or have enough clout that you don't want to do it, you go after a lone line soldier and claim that you're getting 'justice'.

              3) How is this in any way going to heal the rift that obviously still exists. Dozens of IRA terrorists who were common criminals not in any organized force were granted amnesty for crimes in an effort to heal said rift. How is going after a lone squaddie for the acts of multiple people, acts ordered, authorized, condoned, and sanctioned by his command and his government going to heal a rift between peoples?

              Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by m kenny View Post
                There is only one sentence for murder, life imprisonment. I doubt he will be convicted but the evidence that will be revealed in court will destroy the credibility those (not you as you have no credibility to begin with) who claim no crime was committed. The Army's dirty washing will be aired.
                On a serious note I find it incredible that some still fail to grasp the significance of Bloody Sunday. It is 'The' key event in the troubles and it spawned 25 years of incredible violence from both sides. It destroyed any hope the Army was impartial and was the best recruiting office the IRA could have wished for. Anyone thinking they can just shrug it off as '**** happens' is so deluded as to border on insane. It really was the turning point and it was directly responsible for all that followed.
                It's my understanding that there was violence long before Bloody Sunday. And that was part of the reason British soldiers were so keyed up to fight was precisely because of sporadic terror violence.

                I'm not playing sides here mind you. I just view the era of the Troubles as a classic example of the @$!#storm that is counterinsurgency warfare. The IRA and the Army both engaged in operations that fueled the flame on the other side and all too often it was people in the middle minding their own business that got caught in the crossfire. From the Maccabean Revolt to modern day Syria this business is rarely done clean by either side. Everyone likes to point fingers but in most if not all cases it is a two to tango cauldron.
                A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                  Sure, but based on what evidence?
                  Either soldiers are subject to the law or they are not. Especially on their own soil when not at war.

                  Does anyone think that if British soldiers had shot 28 unarmed civilians in London none of them would have faced charges?

                  The victims were, under UK law, as British as people in London. The cover up really highlighted that the British establishment didnít consider the Nationalist as British as the Unionists or those who actually lived in Britain.
                  Good points, well made, one question remains...
                  do you think the Para will be found guilty?


                  The long toll of the brave
                  Is not lost in darkness
                  Over the fruitful earth
                  And athwart the seas
                  Hath passed the light of noble deeds
                  Unquenchable forever.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                    3) How is this in any way going to heal the rift that obviously still exists. Dozens of IRA terrorists who were common criminals not in any organized force were granted amnesty for crimes in an effort to heal said rift. How is going after a lone squaddie for the acts of multiple people, acts ordered, authorized, condoned, and sanctioned by his command and his government going to heal a rift between peoples?
                    While I find it distasteful that terrorists from both sides were let out of prison as part of the Peace Process the key difference here is that the British government and State covered it up, and were active and willing participants in that cover up, and they are still in charge. Until this is resolved the British government will not be seen as legitimate by almost half the people in Northern Ireland.
                    "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                    validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                    "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Von Richter View Post

                      Good points, well made, one question remains...
                      do you think the Para will be found guilty?


                      No, and Iím not sure he should be. Iím a believer in responsibility and culpability lying at the top, not the bottom.
                      This cover up was the establishment looking after itself. Hillsboro was the same thing.
                      "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                      validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                      "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post

                        It's my understanding that there was violence long before Bloody Sunday. And that was part of the reason British soldiers were so keyed up to fight was precisely because of sporadic terror.
                        The army was first deployed to protect Nationalists from Unionist mobs who were burning out whole nationalist/ Catholic neighbourhoods in an attempt to ethnicity cleans parts of Belfast. It was a tacit acknowledgment by the British that the devolved Unionist government was practicing a form of apartheid. The mobs were assisted by the RUC and B-Specials. The Catholics welcomed the British army as their protectors. When the Paraís opened fire on a Civil Rights march in Derry they placed the army firmly on the side of the Unionists and wrecked any chance of peace for a generation.

                        The civil rights marches were about things like one person one vote and basic equality. Many of the people who marched with Dr King also marched in Belfast and Derry.
                        "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                        validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                        "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                          This cover up was the establishment looking after itself. Hillsboro was the same thing.
                          I live in Sheffield and was at the Liverpool/Forest match, what a day, that was. Duckenfield is in court right now, and they're at the summing up bit. It'll be interesting to see how this one pans out.




                          The long toll of the brave
                          Is not lost in darkness
                          Over the fruitful earth
                          And athwart the seas
                          Hath passed the light of noble deeds
                          Unquenchable forever.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                            The army was first deployed to protect Nationalists from Unionist mobs who were burning out whole nationalist/ Catholic neighbourhoods in an attempt to ethnicity cleans parts of Belfast.
                            I well remember a squadie telling me that when the first soldiers arrived the Catholics invited them into their houses and gave the patrol tea, cake and biscuits. On his second tour, in the same street, he accepted a cup of tea and had it knocked out of his hand by his Corporal, there was a pile of catshit in the bottom of the mug.
                            Ulster... the theatre of dreams!

                            The long toll of the brave
                            Is not lost in darkness
                            Over the fruitful earth
                            And athwart the seas
                            Hath passed the light of noble deeds
                            Unquenchable forever.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Von Richter View Post

                              I well remember a squadie telling me that when the first soldiers arrived the Catholics invited them into their houses and gave the patrol tea, cake and biscuits. On his second tour, in the same street, he accepted a cup of tea and had it knocked out of his hand by his Corporal, there was a pile of catshit in the bottom of the mug.
                              Ulster... the theatre of dreams!

                              OK...in 1968 the Catholic citizens WELCOMED the British army as a buffer against the Various Ulster vengeance bands, and a thoroughly discredited Ulster Police force. However, the British Army was ordered by someone in the British government to assist the RUC in the suppression of the Catholic areas- a tragic mistake.

                              In place of the immediately unlikely goal of Irish unity, they began to insist on civil rights for the minority (that is, the Catholic) community within Northern Ireland as appropriate for citizens of the United Kingdom.

                              Their specific grievances included the restricted franchise in local government elections (which de facto disenfranchised a higher percentage of Catholics), gerry-mandered local government districts, and the consequent discriminatory treatment in public hiring and availability of benefits, especially public housing. They sought to emulate the tactics of African Americans by conducting a series of protest marches throughout Northern Ireland. Devlin took part in several of these marches, which met a combination of police obstruction and militant Protestant threats....


                              https://biography.yourdictionary.com/bernadette-devlin

                              I do agree that the ordinary British soldiers should not be held responsible for a terrible strategic decision to " bash down the Paddies." They were under orders, poorly prepared, and thrown in on the wrong side.
                              The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Kevinmeath View Post

                                There is a slight problem with this in that the Parachute Regiment wasn't the only British army regiment in Londonderry attempting to help police a riot (and it was a riot not a civil rights protest as is so often claimed-- although most if not all of those killed may not have been taking part in the rioting) the Royal Greenjackets were also very close to the Paras position.

                                Guess how many rounds they fired? nil

                                People killed by them? nil.
                                The Royal Greenjackets were manning fixed barricades. All the paratroopers who fired were from a group that were sent in as snatch squads to arrest rioters. Because their commander ignored (or misinterpreted) orders, they found themselves on foot in amongst tower block in an area known to be a hotbed of the IRA.

                                On the Thursday before Bloody Sunday the IRA machine gunned a police car in Londonderry killing two police officers. That was about a mile away from where the Bloody Sunday shootings took place.

                                It is easy for someone in a courtroom to second guess the soldiers on the ground, and that was the approach Saville took. For example, the first shots fired by the paras on Bloody Sunday, from the Saville Inquiry report:

                                Shortly after arriving at the entrance to the alleyway, Lieutenant N fjred two rounds from
                                his rifme over the heads of people who were in the alleyway or in Chamberlain Street at
                                the end of the alleyway and soon afterwards fjred a third round in the same direction.
                                These people had come from the area around Barrier 14 in William Street. Some of them
                                had been attempting to rescue a man who had been arrested by one of the soldiers with
                                Lieutenant N and some were throwing stones and similar missiles at the soldiers.


                                The shots fjred by Lieutenant N hit buildings, but injured no-one. These were the fjrst rifme
                                shots fjred in the area after soldiers had gone into the Bogside. Lieutenant Nís evidence
                                was that he believed that his shots were the only way of preventing the crowd from
                                attacking him and the soldiers with him. We do not accept that evidence.
                                In our view
                                Lieutenant N probably fjred these shots because he decided that this would be an
                                effective way of frightening the people and moving them on, and not because he
                                considered that they posed such a threat to him or the other soldiers that fjring his rifme
                                was the only option open to him. In our view this use of his weapon cannot be justifjed.


                                Lieutenant N had with him 1 other soldier with a rifle and 1 with a baton gun. They were in a small alley, the entrance of which was partly closed off with a burned out transit van. 1 of the soldiers was attempting to arrest a rioter, a crowd was throwing stones at the soldiers and attempting to "rescue" the arrested man from the soldier. Lieutenant N had already been attacked and knocked to the ground before he reached the alley.

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