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  • E.D. Morel
    replied
    Knowing a little about the subject (being Irish and all that) I can say with some confidence that they are both wrong.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rutger
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post

    As always you are generalizing and exaggerating .
    Finally met your equal then.

    Leave a comment:


  • ljadw
    replied
    Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post

    One thing to consider is that in 1981 when Sands died...Northern Ireland only had about 1.4 million people. The fact that 100,000 of them would attend the funeral of an IRA member would tell us that your viewpoints you are wrong... Could you imagine the many more Irishman who simply could not make the funeral due to the travel and other issues perhaps They had to work. When Sands died in 1981, millions around the world mourned...in Europe thousands in numerous cities took to the streets chanting Bobby Sands.


    Well if you look at the interviews of northern Irishman during the 1980s they suggest that gerrymandering by the British in and around Belfast led to the troubles. One have to realize that Belfast in the 1960s was much more of a mixed city than it was in 1969.

    It’s debatable as to how many Northern Irish protestants want independence. Certainly there was a massive push by Protestants and Catholics for a united Ireland in 1798. Recent polls have shown that small percentages of Northern Irish protestants want independence from England. Those numbers may in the future keep on growing who knows.


    The importance is that Americans supported the IRA. We don’t have cases of Americans running guns to the Taliban. We don’t have cases of Americans running guns to North Korean communists. But it is what it is in the 1970s Americans and one cannot say if some of them were protestants because some of them could’ve been protestants...Americans were sending arms to the Ira.

    Now I would not have sent arms to the IRA in the 1970s If I was living in the USA. But what Im trying to say itt is that the times of the troubles saw an unfortunate divide(The English Hyped it up) between Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland....a divide that was not there in 1798 when the heros Wolfe Tone, a Protestant, and Father John Murphy led the Irish charge for freedom against the English...of course the Irish were and still are influenced by the ideals of the American revolution. Now fast forward to the 1960s when Bobby Sands was growing in Rathcoole..Well Sands had a Protestant Father, Catholic Mom...Catholic and Protestant friends. But by 1969 things started the change...and one has to question how much a role did England play in dividing the Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland to perhaps ensure that Northern Ireland remains an under to the Overlord of England. I dont blame England for wanting to hold onto other countries...but I submit if England already gave up on India, as well as the economic boom town of Hong Kong...well I think The English leaders should have considered a different line when it came to the times of the troubles.
    As always you are generalizing and exaggerating : the example of Wolfe Tone does not prove that catholics and protestants were united against Britain .
    Wolf Tone was a calvinistic presbyterian and the presbyterians were disadvantaged compared to the Anglicans and they were not influenced by the American revolution ,but by the French revolution which was much more radical and had few supporters among catholics ( the church in France was persecuted ) .Catholics in Ireland were on the average not supporting independence from Britain ,but asked equal rights ,the same rights as had the Anglican minority .

    Leave a comment:


  • ljadw
    replied
    Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post

    That is debatable. Certainly as the future comes about...we may see more and more North Irish Protestants fall in love with the cause of Irish Freedom.. They just need to read up on the 1798 Irish Rebellion.
    49000 soldiers from Ireland were killed in WWI .
    42000 citizens of the Irish republic volunteered for the British forces in WWII .
    And also in WWII one soldier of NI got Victoria Cross : it was a catholic .
    PS : there was no conscription in NI in WWII .

    Leave a comment:


  • ljadw
    replied
    Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post

    That is debatable. Certainly as the future comes about...we may see more and more North Irish Protestants fall in love with the cause of Irish Freedom.. They just need to read up on the 1798 Irish Rebellion.
    People in Ireland do not live in the past:The Irish rebellion was in 1798, 222 years ago .And there is today no cause of Irish Freedom : the south is independent and the north prefers to remain British .And the people of the south are that intelligent that they refuse the return of the north : Sinn Fein got only 24,5 % of the popular votes .

    Leave a comment:


  • Stonewall_Jack
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post
    1 You have forgotten Irangate ?
    2 Britain is not hanging on to Northern Ireland and Scotland : NI and Scotland are parts of the UK because the majority of the population is wanting it .
    That is debatable. Certainly as the future comes about...we may see more and more North Irish Protestants fall in love with the cause of Irish Freedom.. They just need to read up on the 1798 Irish Rebellion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stonewall_Jack
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post

    Still today the inhabitants of NI are British citizens, not Irish citizens .
    The catholic church in NI did not support the suicide of Bobby Sands .Besides, what the church said was irrelevant .
    Why do you like to see NI and Scotland independent ? You are not a citizen of NI/Scotland ? Besides, what you like is irrelevant .
    The gerrymandering of constituencies in NI (which was NOT created by Britain ) did not cause the troubles .Both were NOT related . The gerrymandering existed already in 1921 ,and there were no troubles in 1921 .
    Those who fought initially at the start of the troubles were NOT Irish nationalists, but liberals and left wingers as Bernadette Devlin ( the Sanders from NI ) who were hostile to the church . The IRA had disappeared in 1969 .It was resurrected by the harsh reaction from Stormont . I know that a lot of Irish-Americans are living in the past, but I advise you not to believe their pub stories .
    The IRA was supported by only a minority of the catholics in NI and by a minority of the population of the South and by a meaningless minority of the Irish -Americans from NY, Buffalo,etc .They were supported only by those who cherish the memories of the famine and love to sing about The Fields of Athenry .
    I continnue to stand by what I said in post 1949 .
    As long as the protestants of NI will oppose the annexation of NI to the republic, NI will be a part of the UK .And there is no proof that they will give up their opposition .
    One thing to consider is that in 1981 when Sands died...Northern Ireland only had about 1.4 million people. The fact that 100,000 of them would attend the funeral of an IRA member would tell us that your viewpoints you are wrong... Could you imagine the many more Irishman who simply could not make the funeral due to the travel and other issues perhaps They had to work. When Sands died in 1981, millions around the world mourned...in Europe thousands in numerous cities took to the streets chanting Bobby Sands.


    Well if you look at the interviews of northern Irishman during the 1980s they suggest that gerrymandering by the British in and around Belfast led to the troubles. One have to realize that Belfast in the 1960s was much more of a mixed city than it was in 1969.

    It’s debatable as to how many Northern Irish protestants want independence. Certainly there was a massive push by Protestants and Catholics for a united Ireland in 1798. Recent polls have shown that small percentages of Northern Irish protestants want independence from England. Those numbers may in the future keep on growing who knows.


    The importance is that Americans supported the IRA. We don’t have cases of Americans running guns to the Taliban. We don’t have cases of Americans running guns to North Korean communists. But it is what it is in the 1970s Americans and one cannot say if some of them were protestants because some of them could’ve been protestants...Americans were sending arms to the Ira.

    Now I would not have sent arms to the IRA in the 1970s If I was living in the USA. But what Im trying to say itt is that the times of the troubles saw an unfortunate divide(The English Hyped it up) between Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland....a divide that was not there in 1798 when the heros Wolfe Tone, a Protestant, and Father John Murphy led the Irish charge for freedom against the English...of course the Irish were and still are influenced by the ideals of the American revolution. Now fast forward to the 1960s when Bobby Sands was growing in Rathcoole..Well Sands had a Protestant Father, Catholic Mom...Catholic and Protestant friends. But by 1969 things started the change...and one has to question how much a role did England play in dividing the Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland to perhaps ensure that Northern Ireland remains an under to the Overlord of England. I dont blame England for wanting to hold onto other countries...but I submit if England already gave up on India, as well as the economic boom town of Hong Kong...well I think The English leaders should have considered a different line when it came to the times of the troubles.
    Last edited by Stonewall_Jack; 03 Mar 20, 17:35.

    Leave a comment:


  • ljadw
    replied
    Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post

    . Americans did not or do not supply arm shipments to the Iranians.
    s no need for them to hang onto Northern Ireland and Scotland.

    .
    1 You have forgotten Irangate ?
    2 Britain is not hanging on to Northern Ireland and Scotland : NI and Scotland are parts of the UK because the majority of the population is wanting it .

    Leave a comment:


  • ljadw
    replied
    Bedrnadette Devlin ,who became well known during the troubles is an unrelented marxist and defender of Muslim terrorism .

    Leave a comment:


  • ljadw
    replied
    Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post

    No monuments to Solemani in the USA..but their is a monument to Sands. American supplied arm shipments to the IRA in the 1970s and 1980s. Americans did not or do not supply arm shipments to the Iranians. One must understand that American culture loves Irish culture a lot of that has to do with the fact that Americans rebelled against the British Empire just as the Irish did.


    In fact the Irish rebellion of 1798 was fought only some years after the American Revolution. Bobby Sands funeral in 1981 was in northern Ireland and his funeral was attended by Irishman. I don’t understand why you would try and defy reality like that as you did in the other thread. Do you know what that IRA stood for Irish Republican army. I imagine you know what the word Irish means and I imagine you understand that Mr. sand was an Irish Republican member of pira which is no longer active.

    While sands was jailed in hm maze over 30,000 Irishmen Voted sands in the parliament. These Irishman may have been subjects of the British Crown but they were Irish by ethnicity of course you know that so please in the future there’s no need for you to defy the facts. We might have some disagreements on the subject but for you to say that the people who attended Bobby sands funeral we’re not Irishman well that’s unfortunate and you’re wrong.


    The past 225 years have witnessed many Irishman Protestants and Catholics alike that stood up to the British most notably the society of united Irishman in 1798.


    During the life of Bobby Sands The British government gerrymandered districts in northern Ireland to create divisions that led to the troubles this is an argument put forth by broth the protestant militia’s as well as the IRA Catholics of the 1970s. No country is perfect I admire England’s history but I would also like to see Northern Ireland and Scotland become independent from England. England has already given up on India and most of its empire decades ago... there’s no need for them to hang onto Northern Ireland and Scotland.

    Sands was both supported and denounced by clergy.
    Still today the inhabitants of NI are British citizens, not Irish citizens .
    The catholic church in NI did not support the suicide of Bobby Sands .Besides, what the church said was irrelevant .
    Why do you like to see NI and Scotland independent ? You are not a citizen of NI/Scotland ? Besides, what you like is irrelevant .
    The gerrymandering of constituencies in NI (which was NOT created by Britain ) did not cause the troubles .Both were NOT related . The gerrymandering existed already in 1921 ,and there were no troubles in 1921 .
    Those who fought initially at the start of the troubles were NOT Irish nationalists, but liberals and left wingers as Bernadette Devlin ( the Sanders from NI ) who were hostile to the church . The IRA had disappeared in 1969 .It was resurrected by the harsh reaction from Stormont . I know that a lot of Irish-Americans are living in the past, but I advise you not to believe their pub stories .
    The IRA was supported by only a minority of the catholics in NI and by a minority of the population of the South and by a meaningless minority of the Irish -Americans from NY, Buffalo,etc .They were supported only by those who cherish the memories of the famine and love to sing about The Fields of Athenry .
    I continnue to stand by what I said in post 1949 .
    As long as the protestants of NI will oppose the annexation of NI to the republic, NI will be a part of the UK .And there is no proof that they will give up their opposition .

    Leave a comment:


  • Stonewall_Jack
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post

    A lot of wrong reasons
    1 Sands did not give his life for Irish Freedom : he wanted the annexation of Northern Ireland to the South, something the majority of the people of NI refused .
    2 That there were 100000 people ( NOT Irishmen ) at his funeral,is not an argument :there were more than 100000 people at the funeral of Soleimani
    3 Sands was not elected by 30000 Irish voters, but by 30000 British citizens
    4 Sands was condemned by cardinal Hume .
    No monuments to Solemani in the USA..but their is a monument to Sands. American supplied arm shipments to the IRA in the 1970s and 1980s. Americans did not or do not supply arm shipments to the Iranians. One must understand that American culture loves Irish culture a lot of that has to do with the fact that Americans rebelled against the British Empire just as the Irish did.


    In fact the Irish rebellion of 1798 was fought only some years after the American Revolution. Bobby Sands funeral in 1981 was in northern Ireland and his funeral was attended by Irishman. I don’t understand why you would try and defy reality like that as you did in the other thread. Do you know what that IRA stood for Irish Republican army. I imagine you know what the word Irish means and I imagine you understand that Mr. sand was an Irish Republican member of pira which is no longer active.

    While sands was jailed in hm maze over 30,000 Irishmen Voted sands in the parliament. These Irishman may have been subjects of the British Crown but they were Irish by ethnicity of course you know that so please in the future there’s no need for you to defy the facts. We might have some disagreements on the subject but for you to say that the people who attended Bobby sands funeral we’re not Irishman well that’s unfortunate and you’re wrong.


    The past 225 years have witnessed many Irishman Protestants and Catholics alike that stood up to the British most notably the society of united Irishman in 1798.


    During the life of Bobby Sands The British government gerrymandered districts in northern Ireland to create divisions that led to the troubles this is an argument put forth by broth the protestant militia’s as well as the IRA Catholics of the 1970s. No country is perfect I admire England’s history but I would also like to see Northern Ireland and Scotland become independent from England. England has already given up on India and most of its empire decades ago... there’s no need for them to hang onto Northern Ireland and Scotland.

    Sands was both supported and denounced by clergy.

    Leave a comment:


  • ljadw
    replied
    Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post

    Well a # of reasons. For standing up for the cause of Irish Freedom by giving his life in a non violent manner. I take an interest into learning more about the Unionist as well as Protestant militias of the Troubles. I find it interesting that Bobby Sands has monuments all over the world including in the USA. An Israeli Prime Minister went by the name Michael in homage to Michael Collins. There is a lot of love toward the Irish all over the world.

    Did you know that Bobby Sands funeral had over 100,000 Irishmen? Did you know that Sands was elected to Parliament winning the confidence of over 30,000 Irish voters? The Troubles saw a time of irregular warfare... Whats interesting though as the BBC video I posted above shows us that the Protestant militia men in Northern Ireland had a disagreement with the British Gov. Its to bad that their was not more of a united push among Irish Catholics and Protestants in the 1970s as there was in 1798.
    A lot of wrong reasons
    1 Sands did not give his life for Irish Freedom : he wanted the annexation of Northern Ireland to the South, something the majority of the people of NI refused .
    2 That there were 100000 people ( NOT Irishmen ) at his funeral,is not an argument :there were more than 100000 people at the funeral of Soleimani
    3 Sands was not elected by 30000 Irish voters, but by 30000 British citizens
    4 Sands was condemned by cardinal Hume .

    Leave a comment:


  • Stonewall_Jack
    replied
    Originally posted by CarpeDiem View Post

    Your video would be incorrect.

    http://www.irishnews.com/news/2014/0...r-sands-94597/



    Note the highlighted bit.
    For further information St Agnes' is a Catholic Church.
    http://www.stagnesbelfast.com/?page_id=50
    Its possible that Sands father converted after his sons death in 1981. The BBC itself though reported that Sands was born to a Protestant father. In addition to that...Bobby Sands grew up with Protestant friends in a area by Belfast that was mixed in the 1960s but by the times of the troubles the division started to ramp up.

    Edit" I am impressed that you took an interest into the subject. And Im glad you provided the information above because I am interested in the background of Bobby Sands.
    Last edited by Stonewall_Jack; 02 Mar 20, 18:49.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stonewall_Jack
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post

    Why is he one of your heroes ?
    Well a # of reasons. For standing up for the cause of Irish Freedom by giving his life in a non violent manner. I take an interest into learning more about the Unionist as well as Protestant militias of the Troubles. I find it interesting that Bobby Sands has monuments all over the world including in the USA. An Israeli Prime Minister went by the name Michael in homage to Michael Collins. There is a lot of love toward the Irish all over the world.

    Did you know that Bobby Sands funeral had over 100,000 Irishmen? Did you know that Sands was elected to Parliament winning the confidence of over 30,000 Irish voters? The Troubles saw a time of irregular warfare... Whats interesting though as the BBC video I posted above shows us that the Protestant militia men in Northern Ireland had a disagreement with the British Gov. Its to bad that their was not more of a united push among Irish Catholics and Protestants in the 1970s as there was in 1798.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stonewall_Jack
    replied
    Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
    Bobby Sands was in the IRA and supported their terrorist campaign. His father was Catholic.
    Ireland has, thankfully, for the most part ditched the poison that is religion. Northern Ireland is still crippled by it. Their economy is still a basket case. There’s no shortage of cars (and we have electricity and plumbing and we don’t live in thatched cottages).
    From the 1:45 mark of this video ED, Sands father was a Protestant and his mother a Catholic. Unless that is Sands father perhaps converted to Catholicism following Sands death?



    Bobby Sands also grew up with Protestant friends.

    Its high time that Northern Ireland unites with The Republic of Ireland. So is it fake news wrt the econonic recovery of Northern Ireland...going from having .5 cars per a family of 4 to having 2 cars per family of 4. Havent things improved economically in Northern Ireland since the 1990s. At the least the place is no dump.


    England left the EU. Next up is independence for Northern Ireland as well as Scotland from England.

    Leave a comment:

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