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  • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
    Which would mean another "extension" for Brexit (at least) untill after the next Uk general election no ?
    Nope. How can Parliament apply for an extension when they are not sitting?

    Comment


    • Well that's the question,

      here at least any significant decision needs parlaimentary approval, in case of Brexit - I think any number of existing UK laws need to be changed for it to "actually happen" no ?

      Of course you could have a "Brexit" without changing any laws, but that would be just for the gallery then…..

      If you leave the EU but retain all EU law as it currently stands then no one will care, or even notice, will they ?

      https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics...endum-36473105

      We also adopt some EU regulations that simply codify existing UK law at a European level. In other words, we would have that law anyway. But perhaps the biggest way in which it is said the 62% is inflated is because it includes within it what are known as non-legislative EU regulations, which concern matters so small or routine that many people wouldn't really recognise them as law.
      Last edited by Snowygerry; 14 Aug 19, 08:38.
      High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
      Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
        Well that's the question,

        here at least any significant decision needs parlaimentary approval, in case of Brexit - I think any number of existing UK laws need to be changed for it to "actually happen" no ?
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...awal)_Act_2018

        Of course you could have a "Brexit" without changing any laws, but that would be just for the gallery then…..

        If you leave the EU but retain all EU law as it currently stands then no one will care, or even notice, will they ?
        Well we stop sending Brussels a check for £1 billion quid every month, and you all have to stop fishing in our seas, but apart from that, yes.

        This is also known as having your cake and eating it (which is always the best thing to do with cake IMO).

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
          Well we stop sending Brussels a check for £1 billion quid every month, and you all have to stop fishing in our seas, but apart from that, yes.
          Even that would a require a functioning UK parliament I suspect to negate the existing agreements.

          https://www.consilium.europa.eu/nl/p...ishing-quotas/

          Unless you send Farage in his little skiff to board our fleet

          That's the reason we refused the US request to send our mighty two frigates to the Persian Gulf, we will be ready to counter the Brexit Fishing Armada....
          High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
          Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

            Even that would a require a functioning UK parliament I suspect to negate the existing agreements.
            Actually it doesn't. Just a functioning government would do. The laws are already in place:

            https://www.un.org/depts/los/convent...UNCLOS-TOC.htm

            Map-of-the-British-Isles-showing-UK-waters-The-UKs-Exclusive-Economic-Zone-EEZ-is-in.png

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
              Well we stop sending Brussels a check for £1 billion quid every month,
              Yes, and no. For one contrary to usual stories Brussels actually runs a very lean system as far as bureaucracies and civil services go. And the UK has relied on certain functions to be fully done by the EU so those now need to be done locally. So savings are unlikely to be all that significant even without factoring in the loss in trade that will result from the Brexit (regardless how it turns out).
              and you all have to stop fishing in our seas, but apart from that, yes.
              The fishing part doesn't really work either. After all it was your very own governments who in their infinite wisdom decided to make fishing quotas transferable (i.e. tradeable). And it was your very own entrepreneurial quota owners who decided to sell them on. https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/201...-uk-fleetwood/ It was sovereign decision by the UK to allow selling the quotas to others. Additional problem comes with the fact that while the UK does catch fish and consume fish, the population is not particularly keen on eating the said fish. As far as what i have understood UK still exports over 50% of its catch and imports quite a bit more than that (mainly because they are 'wrong kind of fish'). And now the trade will become harder - if the consumers in the UK change their habits then i suppose things might work but it is unlikely outcome. Reducing tariffs in such a case would only hurt UK fishermen for example (since imports would be cheap but the exports would not).

              Also i really doubt the EU will allow (as in not put pressure on) the UK to increase its catch - there is already pressure to cut the fishing down even further to ensure the fish stocks survive. The reason why fishermen complain (not just in the UK) of the CFP is mainly because their income now depends on there being fish to catch and being allowed to catch them - the aim of the EU's fishery policy (that is curbing down the catches) is however not to ensure that the fishermen get rich but that the fish stocks would survive. If the UK aims for the future they should look technologies and techniques for growing fish in indoor tanks. Fish caught from sea will not increase, only decrease.
              This is also known as having your cake and eating it (which is always the best thing to do with cake IMO).
              It might, but it just ain't quite that easy.
              It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                Parliament is more in tune with the public than Boris - Agree - 25%; Disagree - 40%; Don't Know - 35%
                Parliament is out of touch with the people - Agree - 77%; Disagree - 11%; Don't Know - 12%

                Boris needs to deliver Brexit by any means, including suspending Parliament if necessary - Agree - 44%; Disagree - 37%; Don't Know - 19%

                Did you read the link?
                "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                  Also i really doubt the EU will allow (as in not put pressure on) the UK to increase its catch - there is already pressure to cut the fishing down even further to ensure the fish stocks survive. .
                  Uh, you don't understand. The UK will decide who, when, how and how much fish is caught in British waters. Not the effing EU.

                  Currently 50% of all the fish consumed in the EU is fished in British waters.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                    Uh, you don't understand. The UK will decide who, when, how and how much fish is caught in British waters. Not the effing EU.

                    Currently 50% of all the fish consumed in the EU is fished in British waters.
                    given what an Englishman will catch and eat:
                    Brean and Tench, anyone?
                    The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                      Uh, you don't understand. The UK will decide who, when, how and how much fish is caught in British waters. Not the effing EU.
                      I do understand. But the problem for your argument is that UK does not exist in a vacuum. One of the reasons why the overall CFP quotas have been as low as they have has not been the petty mindedness of Brussels but the genuine concern for dwindling fish stocks. The quotas are still too high and should be lowered even further. All of this in turn means that if the UK starts overfishing the other countries will respond - they'll have to. So while the UK has can decide the things you mentioned you can not imagine the UK to be able to act in a vacuum when dealing with resources that affect other countries as well (so the UK can not unilaterally do what it wants regardless of the Brexit outcome, not without severe consequences).
                      Currently 50% of all the fish consumed in the EU is fished in British waters.
                      Mainly because the British themselves have sold off their quotas to other countries. That was your own sovereign entrepreneurial choice (free market and all that jazz) not caused by the EU but your very own government instead. But even if all of that would be fished by Britain it still would not create the kind of Bonanza some seem to imagine. The problems caused by non-single market trade would see to that. It is not only the increased costs of British fish catch but also the delays which means that it won't be as fresh (i.e. as of high quality) as what something for which premium would be paid for.
                      It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                        The EU bigwigs are really concerned for the sanctity of the single market - or so they claim.

                        In reality it just gives them a fig leaf to act like the proverbial scorned woman.
                        Hell hath no fury like a Frenchwoman scorned- or called the " she wolf of Anjou..."
                        The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

                          Excuse me ?

                          How do you "suspend parliament" - isn't that a "coup d'etat" then ?
                          By the ankles, and - yes...... Illustration of "the devils Parliament of 1455 Getting the vote to attaint Lords Salisbury and York.

                          Last edited by marktwain; 16 Aug 19, 12:42. Reason: 'e votes yess, M'Lord...
                          The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                            I do understand. But the problem for your argument is that UK does not exist in a vacuum. One of the reasons why the overall CFP quotas have been as low as they have has not been the petty mindedness of Brussels but the genuine concern for dwindling fish stocks. The quotas are still too high and should be lowered even further. All of this in turn means that if the UK starts overfishing the other countries will respond - they'll have to.
                            The reason fish stocks are low in British waters is because every bugger in Europe has been able to fish there for the past 45 years!

                            When the UK takes back control of their waters, fish stocks will recover because we'll be the only people fishing them!

                            The Common Fisheries Policy has been a utter disgrace for the EEC/EU. It's the main reason why Norway and Iceland have never joined and why Greenland left. Fancy declaring yourselves entitled to other countries natural resources.

                            Elsewhere in Europe
                            Cod and other commercial fish stocks in Icelandic waters at historic heights

                            https://icelandmag.is/article/cod-an...storic-heights

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                              The reason fish stocks are low in British waters is because every bugger in Europe has been able to fish there for the past 45 years!
                              Fishing right issue has existed longer than what the EU has existed. And currently the main reason why there are European fishermen in UK waters is because the UK out of its own volition has sold the rights granted to it under the CFP to other countries which it never actually had to do. What you are seeing is how the free market so love in the UK works - but that was UK's own decision not one imposed on the UK by the EU.
                              When the UK takes back control of their waters, fish stocks will recover because we'll be the only people fishing them!
                              Not quite. The fishermen around the world have proven to be too greedy to manage fisheries in sustainable manner. The main issue however is that given that the fish do not respect the boundaries created by men the changes in the UK practices will reflect on others as well even if they keep fishing within their own waters. This means that if the UK starts reaping the seas clean (as happens in cases where fishermen themselves set 'quotas') there will be response from the EU side (and likely Norwegian & Islandic too).
                              The Common Fisheries Policy has been a utter disgrace for the EEC/EU. It's the main reason why Norway and Iceland have never joined and why Greenland left. Fancy declaring yourselves entitled to other countries natural resources.
                              Claim often made by those who do not realize the consequences of the CFP or lack there off. Fishermen have proven to be incapable of keeping the fishing within sustainable levels. Complexity of the fishing rights and the fact the fishes actually move around means that agreements needed to be more binding so that all nations involved are in it together.

                              According to the Norwegians the issue is not quite so easy as what you imagine : https://www.kluge.no/fagforum/brexit...ian-fisheries/
                              Elsewhere in Europe
                              Cod and other commercial fish stocks in Icelandic waters at historic heights

                              https://icelandmag.is/article/cod-an...storic-heights
                              Yet that and other recovering stocks seem to be result of rather harsh restrictions on fisheries like the CFP: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can...k-fisheries-0/ And even the CFP limits are criticized of being too high (i.e. they should be reduced further). The problem again is that if the agreement does not bind Norway or Island they can act as free riders. CFP is far from perfect though but it is far better than nothing. You should not forget that the fact that Norway and Island do have fisheries agreements with the EU as it is. For example if the Norwegians started reaping the seas clean to create such a fishing Bonanza you seem to imagine that awaits the UK then the Norwegians would need to forget (their access to and) selling their fish to the EU markets (for starters - it wouldn't stop there). The same is very likely to be the outcome with the UK.

                              As usual the good old TANSTAAFL principle works even in here. (i) for there to be any change at all the UK would need to change its own policies of selling quota which it decided to do of its own volition without being required to do so (either by the EU in general or by the CFP). (ii) regardless if the UK would only allow UK fishermen to fish in the UK waters it would still need abide by those quotas - they might have different name but their effect and size would likely be the exact same - so it wont be a Bonanza for any one. (iii) main issue with the UK fishing industry is not related to the EU but how the UK internally handles its fishing quotas - Brexit does nothing to change that. (iv) if the UK would deviate from those outlines it would need to forget its access the EU markets (especially for the fish).
                              It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                              Comment


                              • Jeremy Corbyn wants to become PM in order to stop a non deal Brexit.
                                Even for a remainer is it worth it if it means letting a Marxist into number 10?
                                Is it the Meatloaf Option; I'd do anything to avoid Brexit but I won't do that.
                                "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                                validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                                "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                                Comment

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