Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Brexit

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
    The backstop was asked for by the May government, and is still a mechanism that hypothetically could allow the UK to game the situation for its own benefit to some extent, and the expense of the Common Market.
    Not really.

    There are 2 versions of the backstop. The initial one was to apply to Northern Ireland only and required NI to follow EU rules (current and future) to avoid creating a hard border. The DUP in NI objected as this would result in NI being effectively within the EU and create a border between them and the rest of the UK. May then negotiated a backstop which extended it to the rest of the UK, but at the cost of making it virtually impossible to negotiate separate trade deals. But this couldn't pass the House of Commons; the only thing that did was the Brady amendment - ie the Withdrawal Agreement without the backstop.

    The North-South border is solvable but it would require a lot of fudge with the border being in different places for different elements. Otherwise the EU insist on a backstop to prevent a hard border, but instead will end up with no deal and a hard border.

    The UK has already legislated against any border infrastructure; the EU and Ireland will now have to decide what they want the North-South border to look like in the event of no deal.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
      The biggest misconception in the Tory media at the moment is that this is some sort of plot by the Irish Government to get a united Ireland.
      It's not a misconception over intent, just over timing. Long term an open border with Ireland, and a border (even a "de-dramatized" one) with the rest of the UK will make NI more amenable to voting for a united island. Varadker just doesn't want a vote now, which would probably be very close, and be expensive for Ireland.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Aber View Post

        It's not a misconception over intent, just over timing. Long term an open border with Ireland, and a border (even a "de-dramatized" one) with the rest of the UK will make NI more amenable to voting for a united island. Varadker just doesn't want a vote now, which would probably be very close, and be expensive for Ireland.
        Varadkar, like the majority of Irish people, don't really care about unification and certainly don't want it any time soon so yes, it is incorrect to see any intent or plan in the actions of the Irish Government to use Brexit to move closer to a united Ireland.
        "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
        validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
        "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Aber View Post
          The UK has already legislated against any border infrastructure; the EU and Ireland will now have to decide what they want the North-South border to look like in the event of no deal.
          They can legislate all they like but if they exit under WHO rules they will either have to have a secure border with the EU or no border with anyone.

          "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
          validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
          "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Aber View Post
            The North-South border is solvable but it would require a lot of fudge with the border being in different places for different elements. Otherwise the EU insist on a backstop to prevent a hard border, but instead will end up with no deal and a hard border.
            EU insist that it will not renegociate the WA which include the British proposed backstop. That a minority of British MP had blocked WA in HoC is UK problem not EU one. EU is not there to save UK from its own faults, only protect its own interests.

            The UK has already legislated against any border infrastructure; the EU and Ireland will now have to decide what they want the North-South border to look like in the event of no deal.
            EU rules are quite clear : every border Member State has the duty to protect the common border on behalf of others. Hence there will be a border between Ireland and UK or a backstop. But no open border. There is some kind of irony to hear those who blamed EU for open border and taking back control now blaming EU for willing to comply with its own ruling.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Metryll View Post
              EU insist that it will not renegociate the WA which include the British proposed backstop. That a minority of British MP had blocked WA in HoC is UK problem not EU one. EU is not there to save UK from its own faults, only protect its own interests.
              Yes. Though I would rather say that the WA and the rest have been a mutually negotiated agreement that stays inside the red lines given by the UK and the requirements of the EU. Given the red lines there is very little room to wiggle and what little there is can be handled via the political declaration. So from the EU point of view there is literally nothing to discuss with regards to WA - unless the UK rescinds at least some of its own red lines. The EU can not step down from its own without endangering the integrity of the Single Market and the Customs Union - so that ain't happening. The EU may occasionally bend some rules (but not SM or CU rules) for EU member states but it is beyond ludicrous to think the EU would do so for a non-member state.
              EU rules are quite clear : every border Member State has the duty to protect the common border on behalf of others. Hence there will be a border between Ireland and UK or a backstop. But no open border. There is some kind of irony to hear those who blamed EU for open border and taking back control now blaming EU for willing to comply with its own ruling.
              Pretty much.

              I do have to say that given the issues of that border it was irresponsible for both the UK parliament and for the government to start the Article 50 process without any kind of actual plan. I'm not saying that UK wouldn't have had right to leave - it did, and it was free to use it. But deciding to do so without a plan?
              It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Aber View Post

                Not really.

                There are 2 versions of the backstop. The initial one was to apply to Northern Ireland only and required NI to follow EU rules (current and future) to avoid creating a hard border. The DUP in NI objected as this would result in NI being effectively within the EU and create a border between them and the rest of the UK. May then negotiated a backstop which extended it to the rest of the UK, but at the cost of making it virtually impossible to negotiate separate trade deals. But this couldn't pass the House of Commons; the only thing that did was the Brady amendment - ie the Withdrawal Agreement without the backstop.

                The North-South border is solvable but it would require a lot of fudge with the border being in different places for different elements. Otherwise the EU insist on a backstop to prevent a hard border, but instead will end up with no deal and a hard border.

                The UK has already legislated against any border infrastructure; the EU and Ireland will now have to decide what they want the North-South border to look like in the event of no deal.
                And that UK version of things is what risks jeopardizing the EU common market, unless the EU protects itself.

                The UK is apparently still thinking the EU should screw itself on the UK's behalf?

                Comment


                • Guido July 9th https://order-order.com/2019/07/09/i...heres-no-deal/

                  "The Irish Government has published a document this afternoon on the latest state of their Brexit planning. If there is no deal, they say that various checks on UK imports will be necessary “to preserve Ireland’s full participation in the Single Market and Customs Union”, but – surprise, surprise – these checks don’t need to happen at the border itself. Confirming what everybody knew at the very start of the negotiations before the issue was deliberately blown out of all proportion…

                  Gives Ireland and the EU a pretty simple choice: agree a deal with these sorts of alternative arrangements in place of the backstop – or have no deal and have to put the arrangements in place anyway, with no cash from the UK and all the other complications it will bring. Not exactly a tricky decision…"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                    Gives Ireland and the EU a pretty simple choice: agree a deal with these sorts of alternative arrangements in place of the backstop – or have no deal and have to put the arrangements in place anyway, with no cash from the UK and all the other complications it will bring.
                    That is - to be frank - rather poorly informed suggestion, or then you have not understood the backstop at all. If the so often claimed 'alternative arrangements' would exist (let alone function) they would replace the backstop even if the backstop existed. Contrary to the delusion in the UK the EU views the backstop as a huge concession which may allow the UK to game the EU markets. So getting rid of the backstop would be high in the EU agenda. It is a bad solution but so far it has been the only solution that any one has been able to come up with. It is however the price the EU is willing to pay for upholding the peace on the island of Ireland.

                    Besides no one in the UK has been able to show what these mythical means known by some as 'alternative arrangements' are, how they work, what infrastructure would they require, or anything else. Nor are such measures in use anywhere in the world. Norway-Sweden/Finland and Swiss/EU borders would have jumped a long time ago for such measures if they existed. The reality is that they do not. If you disagree then post here the exact details of them. You can also forward that to the EU as well, here is contact page for Frontext and also the page with information for contacting the European Union in general as well. They are very eager to know about these things which the UK government has not been able to explain in any detail.

                    As to financial settlement and the rest - well, they are and will stay there as preconditions for the UK to make any further agreements with the EU. So no free trade agreements with the EU without those. To make it absolutely clear to you - for the EU a deal which undermines the Single Market and/or the Customs Union are not acceptable at any level. As such for the EU no deal is by far much more preferable to any kind of a deal which compromises either the SM or the CU.
                    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                      That is - to be frank - rather poorly informed suggestion, or then you have not understood the backstop at all. I
                      "agree a deal with these sorts of alternative arrangements in place of the backstop – or have no deal and have to put the arrangements in place anyway"

                      Pretty simple to understand.

                      Fantasies about the crack paratroopers of the World Health Organization dropping into to secure a hard border nothwithstanding.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                        Gives Ireland and the EU a pretty simple choice: agree a deal with these sorts of alternative arrangements in place of the backstop – or have no deal and have to put the arrangements in place anyway, with no cash from the UK and all the other complications it will bring. Not exactly a tricky decision…"
                        Did you actually read the Irish Times article linked?

                        When the alternative arrangements are in place the Backstop goes. That's what has been agreed and that's what the UK government won't accept.
                        "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                        validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                        "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Metryll View Post

                          EU rules are quite clear : every border Member State has the duty to protect the common border on behalf of others. Hence there will be a border between Ireland and UK or a backstop. But no open border.
                          Which is why the EU and Ireland are talking about what the border will look like. Currently it seems there will not be any infrastructure at the border.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                            "agree a deal with these sorts of alternative arrangements in place of the backstop – or have no deal and have to put the arrangements in place anyway"
                            You are just repeating the same nonsensical catchphrase which you either picked up somewhere or came up yourself. For any one to use these mythical British alternative arrangements that no one knows anything about you kind of need to tell every one else what they are. As to the rest - your conclusion is false. Lack of agreement would not lead to adaptation of 'alternative arrangements' but to actual hard border with 'conventional arrangements'.
                            It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Aber View Post
                              Which is why the EU and Ireland are talking about what the border will look like. Currently it seems there will not be any infrastructure at the border.
                              That is because there is still no clarity of any kind as to what will the eventual outcome of the Brexit be in relation to the border on the island of Ireland. RoI is increasing its the number of its border/customs officials, as far as what i have understood the Frontex is preparing to assist Ireland. So preparations are being done, just not on the visible level, yet. You seem to be misunderstanding that what the EU and the Republic of Ireland want with that of which there has to be. Regulatory divergence as well as customs divergence necessitate for there to be border checks - that is not what the EU or the RoI want but it is what seems to be unfortunate outcome of this mess. It is likely that there will be a grace period of some length (few months to a year) regardless of the outcome.
                              It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                                Did you actually read the Irish Times article linked?

                                When the alternative arrangements are in place the Backstop goes. That's what has been agreed and that's what the UK government won't accept.
                                "In a Brexit planning document published this afternoon the [Irish] Government says the checks required would disrupt trade between the UK and Ireland but says these checks would not take place at the border."

                                It is the UK Parliament that will not accept the Agreement, not the Government,

                                Comment

                                Latest Topics

                                Collapse

                                Working...
                                X