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  • Gooner
    replied
    Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
    It doesn't say anything of what the EU wants
    Yes it does, of course it does. The EU created the graphic.

    Their problem is, in creating that graphic they bungled. They didn't actually think the UK would take that 'offer' up.
    So now they are backtracking


    And can rely on the usual credulous Eurotrolls to spout the papal infallibility line.

    Leave a comment:


  • Vaeltaja
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post
    Do you actually understand what the word implicit means?
    The problem is that it wasn't even that. You are deliberately in bad faith misrepresenting the diagram. No such deal was promised or offered. If you or the UK believed so that is your problem - no one made such an offer.
    But it won't be such an agreement because the EU are unilaterally changing the terms.
    No one presented any terms earlier because there was no propositions - just showing the extent limited by the UK's red lines. You didn't actually think that you could just dictate the terms from there did you? Just read what Snowygerry posted.
    Lies by omission.

    If the EU had been honest it would never have created this graphic
    How so? The only reason why it may seem to you so is because you have not understood what the diagram is about. It is about the limits caused by the UK's own red lines. It doesn't say anything of what the EU wants or on what conditions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snowygerry
    replied
    1*hZXS0fkolMYvTwyF0oLe4Q.jpg

    This is one Barnier made up when he was drunk

    Or for a slightly more dramatic version :

    DRqg7bLX4AAvAjo.jpg

    Leave a comment:


  • Snowygerry
    replied
    I think this is a reasonable assessment :

    178.It is clear to us that whatever formal structure is adopted for the future UK-EU relationship, it is likely to be composite in nature: there will be different levels of integration in different areas. It follows that there will be no ‘one-size-fits-all’ mechanism for enforcement and dispute resolution. This could mean that the UK would only be obliged to accept the jurisdiction of the CJEU in specific and limited areas, for instance those involving direct co-operation with EU agencies, or within the field of justice and home affairs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snowygerry
    replied
    Justice-Brexit_Slides-PowerPoint.png

    Meanwhile :

    Since the publication of the ‘staircase diagram’, Michel Barnier has taken a slightly more nuanced approach, acknowledging that the future relationship will be broader than merely a free trade agreement. In February 2018, he suggested that a future relationship might be predicated on ‘four pillars’, containing multiple agreements:

    Leave a comment:


  • Snowygerry
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post
    If the EU had been honest it would never have created this graphic
    It didn't apparently,

    source is parliament.uk

    Edit, they source it here :

    Source: European Commission, ‘Slide presented by Michel Barnier, European Commission Chief Negotiator, to the Heads of State and Government at the European Council (Article 50) on 15 December 2017’: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publications/slide-presented-michel-barnier-european-commission-chief-negotiator-heads-state-and-government-european-council-article-50-15-december-2017_en [accessed 27 April 2018]


    Remarks: This is only for presentational and information purposes. It is naturally without prejudice to discussions on the framework of the future relationship.
    Last edited by Snowygerry; 24 Feb 20, 06:37.

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  • Gooner
    replied
    Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
    Have you considered actually reading what you are posting?
    Do you actually understand what the word implicit means?

    It was still not showing anything other that it was possible to reach such an agreement after taking the UK red lines into account.
    But it won't be such an agreement because the EU are unilaterally changing the terms.

    Where exactly in that is any dishonesty?
    Lies by omission.

    If the EU had been honest it would never have created this graphic




    Leave a comment:


  • Vaeltaja
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post
    It was implicitly stated by Barnier in 2017
    I wonder if you noticed but not even the source you are using states that.
    "A free trade deal with the European Union similar to those it has with Canada and South Korea is the logical outcome of Britain’s Brexit “red lines” and EU rules, according to a graphic issued by EU negotiator Michel Barnier on Tuesday."
    Have you considered actually reading what you are posting? It is referring to the same old 'Barnier's stair slide image' - "according to a graphic". So, no. It was still not showing anything other that it was possible to reach such an agreement after taking the UK red lines into account. However it was not showing or promising (or anything such) that such a deal would be automatically offered on similar terms as CETA. Just that it was something that despite of the UK's own red lines was still possible. And it is still possible. No one said it would be on the same conditions.
    Good point, those stupid Brits deluding themselves that the EU would be honest and honourable in their negotiations.
    Where exactly in that is any dishonesty? No one promised such an agreement for the UK on the same conditions as what Canada has.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gooner
    replied
    Originally posted by Metryll View Post
    EU wants nothing. UK is calling for demands,
    Eh? The EU is demanding a lot. Regulatory alignment and EU supervision of 'level playing field' rules, the Greeks want the Elgin Marbles, the French want to continue fishing our seas, the Spanish want Gibraltar. It has become a veritable EU shopping list of demands.
    I expect the Germans will demand an apology for the bombing of Dresden next

    Leave a comment:


  • Gooner
    replied
    Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
    And? Was it ever explicitly stated (outside of the UK politicians and media) that the EU would automatically grant such a deal? It was only noted on the EU side that it was possible to reach such a deal - not that the UK would get it for free or even on the same conditions as what the Canada did. So where is the backtracking?
    It was implicitly stated by Barnier in 2017

    "A free trade deal with the European Union similar to those it has with Canada and South Korea is the logical outcome of Britain’s Brexit “red lines” and EU rules, according to a graphic issued by EU negotiator Michel Barnier on Tuesday."

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-br...-idUKKBN1ED23R

    What I'm seeing is just the British deluding themselves.
    Good point, those stupid Brits deluding themselves that the EU would be honest and honourable in their negotiations.

    Leave a comment:


  • Johan Banér
    replied
    No one in their right mind in the UK expects to be granted access to the Chinese or US markets at conditions of the UK's choosing, and suggesting it will get you dismissed as a fantasist.

    Yet when it comes to the EU, apparently otherwise reasonable British people clearly are able to assume precisely that.

    No one has so far been able to explain this discrepancy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Metryll
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post

    Eh? That is just babble. Not unusual for you though ...
    I'm not the Guardian. As usual you simply ignore facts...

    Sort of proves what I claimed. Agreements between the UK and EU on education, security and counter-terrorism etc are mutually beneficial and barely contentious. That the EU wants to bundle these into a 'package' that still allows the EU the power significant interference and oversight into UK matters is petty and churlish.
    EU wants nothing. UK is calling for demands, EU answer. Don't like it ? Go away. Once again this OUR single market. You will not access it without cost. Beleiving that UK could impose its will over 27 States sovereignty show a new high water mark in desillusion and comedy...

    Leave a comment:


  • Vaeltaja
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post
    The Canadian style deal is the Canadian style deal. Saying the UK version of such a deal has to come with the added bonus of the UK requirement to 'dynamically harmonize' with EU laws and regulations ain't the Canadian style deal
    And? Was it ever explicitly stated (outside of the UK politicians and media) that the EU would automatically grant such a deal? It was only noted on the EU side that it was possible to reach such a deal - not that the UK would get it for free or even on the same conditions as what the Canada did. So where is the backtracking?

    What I'm seeing is just the British deluding themselves. Or can you show where it was explicitly stated that the EU would be granting the similar deal without any extra conditions? That stair slide does not do it. It only marks it as possible despite of the UK red lines - which it still is.

    Leave a comment:


  • CarpeDiem
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post


    Yes, but the UK and the EU would be approaching any CETA type deal from the opposite direction - what tariffs and quotas and obstacles to impose, not get rid of.
    And why would this be any faster to negotiate?

    Leave a comment:


  • Gooner
    replied
    Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
    When, where and how did the EU offer CETA style deal? Canada style deal was only noted in the famous stair slide (for example) that it remained something which could still be achieved despite of the UK's red lines - not that it would have been available without a cost, or just be a pick-n-choose. So what backtracking? Because for that to happen the offer would have needed to have been made in the first place.
    The Canadian style deal is the Canadian style deal. Saying the UK version of such a deal has to come with the added bonus of the UK requirement to 'dynamically harmonize' with EU laws and regulations ain't the Canadian style deal

    Last edited by Gooner; 21 Feb 20, 14:24.

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