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  • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post

    At which point does a UK government that clearly no longer governs throw in the towel and step down?
    The solution is simple. Let Parliament do its job and make it a free vote. What is going wrong is that Mrs May has decided the most important thing is to keep the Conservative Party together rather than do the best for the Country. She is gambling that only the Brexit loonies are crazy enough to rebel and defeat her Government. She thought that by pandering to their crazy ideas she could rely on the sensible Tories to put up with the madness in the cause of party unity. However the remainers decided they could play that game and they then stood up to Mrs May. Now May has two extremes to balance and, unfortunately for the Brexit loonies, they are vastly outnumbered by sensible leavers. For all the Brexiteers talk about 'democracy' the last thing they want is a democratic free vote because they know they will be outvoted massively. That is why they are trying to wreck the system and stop a free vote.


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    • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
      It perhaps might be said so, and there are no perfect analogies. Problem is perhaps that the situations aren't that analogous.
      While the issue of today's Brexit isn't a matter of war-and-peace, the analogy remains: the political elite -- as highlighted in Gooner's previous post -- is seeking a policy diametrically at odds with that desired by the electorate. If the political elite gets their way and history proves them right, then that will be an example of democracy subverted by its leaders for its own good. Sometimes, occasionally, the voters don't know what's best. Sometimes voters have to be led -- like grazing animals -- to the best pastures. This is the dilemma that is facing Theresa May and the rest of Westminster: how to hoodwink an electorate into a clearly superior policy that the electorate nevertheless disdains and still maintain the pretense of democracy.

      Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
      The long-standing problem is that membership in the EU has not been something the British public really wants. It might be argued they don't get the EU, but that doesn't change that it's not popular. In the long run it becomes very difficult to maintain a representative democracy and maintain an institutional order that is actually unpopular. Of course, British politicians might have chose to invest more in why EU membership is an advantage, and maybe popular opinion might have swing eventually? But they didn't. The EU has been a favourite to dump all problems on (the EU made us do it). It's actually a bit of an indictment of British democracy that such a lot of the leave voters in 2016 simply assumed the vote didn't matter. Of course it turned out it really did, which is to its credit. But the disconnect between the political class and the voter majority is clearly there.
      To be fair, how British politicians have treated the EU in public is every politician's wet dream: some one else we can blame for this that and the other thing. Robert Caro detailed how NYC and NYS politicians liked having the imperious Robert Moses around, even if he was an overbearing pain-in-the-a$$: needed public infrastructure got built, no matter whose toes got stepped on, and the elected politicians could always point to the unelected Moses and say, "but it was his idea." Look at how, as the Cold War wound down, the spineless inhabitants of Capitol Hill had to establish a "joint base closure committee" 'cause they knew that not a one of them had the stones enough to pitch to their constituents that it was in the national interest to close a base in their particular district. So yes, from Westminister's point of view, the EU can play a useful role: scapegoat. Certainly that's not unique to Westminster, though. Surely an analogue to such has existed -- or continues to exist -- in Paris, in Rome, in Berlin, in Stockholm, no?
      I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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      • Originally posted by m kenny View Post

        [I]Mr Major comes through more clearly: "The real problem is one of a tiny majority.]
        John Major was right about something then. The tiny majority being the MPs that voted through the Maastricht treaty when the great majority of the people in the country would have voted against Maastricht in a referendum.

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        • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

          John Major was right about something then. The tiny majority being the MPs that voted through the Maastricht treaty when the great majority of the people in the country would have voted against Maastricht in a referendum.
          This from the group that spent 40+years trying (so they said) to restore the 'supremacy of Parliament'. It was one of the main planks of their case for leaving the EU.
          Suddenly these zealots are not so keen on Parliament being supreme.

          Why the sudden volte-face?



          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
            You really haven't got a clue.
            "Resolving trade disputes is one of the core activities of the WTO. A dispute arises when a member government believes another member government is violating an agreement or a commitment that it has made in the WTO. The WTO has one of the most active international dispute settlement mechanisms in the world. Since 1995, over 500 disputes have been brought to the WTO and over 350 rulings have been issued."

            https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e..._e/dispu_e.htm

            A ruling mean that a country found to be in violation is under obligation to abide by WTO rules. From this point of view there is no difference between EU and WTO.

            Blonk...


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            • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

              To be fair, how British politicians have treated the EU in public is every politician's wet dream: some one else we can blame for this that and the other thing. Robert Caro detailed how NYC and NYS politicians liked having the imperious Robert Moses around, even if he was an overbearing pain-in-the-a$$: needed public infrastructure got built, no matter whose toes got stepped on, and the elected politicians could always point to the unelected Moses and say, "but it was his idea." Look at how, as the Cold War wound down, the spineless inhabitants of Capitol Hill had to establish a "joint base closure committee" 'cause they knew that not a one of them had the stones enough to pitch to their constituents that it was in the national interest to close a base in their particular district. So yes, from Westminister's point of view, the EU can play a useful role: scapegoat. Certainly that's not unique to Westminster, though. Surely an analogue to such has existed -- or continues to exist -- in Paris, in Rome, in Berlin, in Stockholm, no?
              Yes, but no the scale as seen in UK in which good events was due to government and bad one to EU (eventough UK was member of EU and shared more than 95% of EU decision) turned as systematic. The phenomenon was even more amplified by medias. This prove true again some Goebbels assertions :

              #1 “It would not be impossible to prove with sufficient repetition and a psychological understanding of the people concerned that a square is in fact a circle. They are mere words, and words can be molded until they clothe ideas and disguise.”

              #2 “The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.”

              Before all, Brexit is the most succesful propaganda effort since USSR good old days.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by m kenny View Post

                This from the group that spent 40+years trying (so they said) to restore the 'supremacy of Parliament'. It was one of the main planks of their case for leaving the EU.
                Suddenly these zealots are not so keen on Parliament being supreme.
                Why the sudden volte-face?
                The majority of the population want Parliamentary Sovereignty, the majority of MPs - at the moment - want to surrender that Sovereignty to Brussels and Strasbourg.
                Whats hard to understand about that?

                And if you're talking about zealots who was more fanatically pro the EU project that John Major who crucified the UK economy with 15% interest rates so the £ pound could stay in the Exchange Rate Mechanism?

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                • Originally posted by Metryll View Post

                  "Resolving trade disputes is one of the core activities of the WTO. A dispute arises when a member government believes another member government is violating an agreement or a commitment that it has made in the WTO. The WTO has one of the most active international dispute settlement mechanisms in the world. Since 1995, over 500 disputes have been brought to the WTO and over 350 rulings have been issued."

                  https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e..._e/dispu_e.htm

                  A ruling mean that a country found to be in violation is under obligation to abide by WTO rules. From this point of view there is no difference between EU and WTO.

                  Blonk...
                  The difference between the EU and the WTO from the UK perspective is that the World Trade Organization can be trusted in its judgements - the EU cannot.


                  BTW to be found in violation of WTO rules a third country would have to set up a dispute - which could be dismissed before hearing if thought to be frivolous - the dispute itself may take over a year before being resolved and then the UK can appeal against the WTO ruling, if it goes against the UK.

                  The UK will, of course, be seeking trade deals and to reduce tariffs generally in our trade outside the EU. Any WTO complainant about borderless NI-ROI trade and the UK will naturally be looking at them less favourably.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                    The majority of the population want Parliamentary Sovereignty, the majority of MPs - at the moment - want to surrender that Sovereignty to Brussels and Strasbourg.

                    Whats hard to understand about that ?
                    The population elects the MPs.

                    How, and why, do they continuously, even in the process of Brexit, elect MPs that want something they don't, and then complain about it, even going as far to call it "treason".

                    THAT's hard to understand, and to my knowledge hasn't been explained here.
                    Last edited by Snowygerry; 19 Mar 19, 08:47.
                    High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

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                    • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                      The difference between the EU and the WTO from the UK perspective is that the World Trade Organization can be trusted in its judgements - the EU cannot.
                      Which really amounts to the EU very consistently telling the UK what it needs to know (but doesn't want to) over a period of several years, and the UK neither liking nor accepting it. The only difference is that the WTO hasn't had to do that yet, so the British can just transfer it's wishful thinking to it.

                      The prognosis was that Brexit would be a learning process about the EU for the UK. It can now be concluded that, while it has been, it is still very incomplete.

                      That wishful thinking dies hard in the UK clearly.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                        The majority of the population want Parliamentary Sovereignty, the majority of MPs - at the moment - want to surrender that Sovereignty to Brussels and Strasbourg.
                        Whats hard to understand about that?

                        Very easy to understand. You want to suspend Parliamentary Democracy if you think there is a chance they will not vote the way you want them to vote..

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                        • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                          The majority of the population want Parliamentary Sovereignty, the majority of MPs - at the moment - want to surrender that Sovereignty to Brussels and Strasbourg.
                          Whats hard to understand about that?

                          There is no majority of MPs who can agree on wanting any particular thing - all they can manage to do is to produce majorities for what they don't want and these contradict each other. They don't want to stay in the EU but they don't want the May deal and they don't want no deal exit either. Its the sort of nonsense you get from mixing representative (parliamentary) democracy with direct (referenda) democracy
                          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                          • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
                            Which really amounts to the EU very consistently telling the UK what it needs to know (but doesn't want to) over a period of several years, and the UK neither liking nor accepting it. The only difference is that the WTO hasn't had to do that yet, so the British can just transfer it's wishful thinking to it.

                            The prognosis was that Brexit would be a learning process about the EU for the UK. It can now be concluded that, while it has been, it is still very incomplete.

                            That wishful thinking dies hard in the UK clearly.

                            The delusion that the WTO will automatically agree with the EU. Your faith in the EU is like a Counter-Reformation priests faith in the papacy.

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                            • Originally posted by m kenny View Post
                              Very easy to understand. You want to suspend Parliamentary Democracy if you think there is a chance they will not vote the way you want them to vote..
                              No. But I do want remain supporting MPs to be deselected from standing at the next election by their Constituency Associations . And the good news is that this is already happening!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                                There is no majority of MPs who can agree on wanting any particular thing - all they can manage to do is to produce majorities for what they don't want and these contradict each other. They don't want to stay in the EU but they don't want the May deal and they don't want no deal exit either.
                                That sums it up quite well although I disagree with your ascension that it due to the mixing of direct and proportional representation.
                                In my opinion it is due to jingoism, nationalism, ideologies on both sides which are divorced from reality and a discontent with the political elite as well as self interest by that elite with a generous helping of incompetence mixed in.
                                "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                                validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                                "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

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