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  • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

    The EU has concluded its negotiations.
    Jeez Louise...

    Yes, yes it has, of the preliminary withdrawal agreement.

    But now the UK cannot take the agreement it itself negotiated, not propose an alternative, not put it to the vote in either a general election, or a referendum, or withdraw its intention to leave in the first place, while apparently having ruled out that it is going to leave with no agreement.

    The UK apparently has neither a functioning government nor functioning politics at the moment, and needs to find both quick.

    Not least since the real negotiations come later. Is the EU to enter into those on the understanding that the UK is negotiating its future relationship with the EU in bad faith?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
      I suspect they expected her to find a majority to support her somehow.
      God knows what they expected, but regardless the EU side had no mandate to NOT engage with the reps of the British government in good faith, which means accepting that the UK government represents and governs the UK.

      Only it now turns out it doesn't. The writing has been on the wall for some time about that one, but no one outside the UK can do ANYTHING about it. It's the responsibility of the Brits to provide a functioning government. Certainly not the EU's. If it claims it represents and governs the UK the EU side can't just go: "Nah, we think that's a blag. Send over the REAL people who represent the UK."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
        Yes, yes it has, of the preliminary withdrawal agreement.
        That is the problem.

        But now the UK cannot take the agreement it itself negotiated
        Theresa May and a few others 'negotiated' the WA, not the UK.

        , not propose an alternative, not put it to the vote in either a general election, or a referendum, or withdraw its intention to leave in the first place, while apparently having ruled out that it is going to leave with no agreement.
        The only thing that is legally obligated at the current time is that the UK leaves the EU on 29th March.

        Not least since the real negotiations come later. Is the EU to enter into those on the understanding that the UK is negotiating its future relationship with the EU in bad faith?
        You have that arse about face. The trade (and other deals) will be negotiated after 29th March and ending 31st December 2020 IIRC. If no adequate agreements are made by then the UK has no choice but to remain in the customs union and under the jurisdiction of the ECJ.
        At that point the Prime Minister - and it will not be Theresa May - should just rip up the Withdrawal Agreement and walk away with huge public acclaim, whilst the prestige of the EU sinks as its dishonest and bad faith mentality are revealed to all.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
          You have that arse about face. The trade (and other deals) will be negotiated after 29th March and ending 31st December 2020 IIRC. If no adequate agreements are made by then the UK has no choice but to remain in the customs union and under the jurisdiction of the ECJ.
          At that point the Prime Minister - and it will not be Theresa May - should just rip up the Withdrawal Agreement and walk away with huge public acclaim, whilst the prestige of the EU sinks as its dishonest and bad faith mentality are revealed to all.
          As things stand now, the only viable alternative to May and her Tories is Labour -- led by Jeremy Corbyn. While you no doubt very much approve of Corbyn's ardent Brexit stance, how well can you tolerate a PM who considers himself the reincarnation of Che Guevara?

          Theresa May may be lame, she may be stupid, but at least she's not insane. With that in mind, why do Tories insist on repeatedly torpedoing the only human being who stands between Red Jeremy Corbyn and the premiership?
          I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
            You have that arse about face. The trade (and other deals) will be negotiated after 29th March and ending 31st December 2020 IIRC.
            If and only if there is a withdrawal agreement. There is no transition period in case of no-deal Brexit. Nor are there in such a case any guarantees of trade talks either. Sure, there is nothing preventing them either.
            If no adequate agreements are made by then the UK has no choice but to remain in the customs union and under the jurisdiction of the ECJ.
            That is not quite what the backstop is. Besides if the UK has valid and actually functional 'alternative solutions' then you have nothing to fear. Reality however is - like Sabine Weyand said - that the UK negotiators have not been able to provide examples of such. Nor have the EU staff. You need to realize that the EU will welcome alternative solutions if the UK can actually provide any. The backstop is a lousy deal for the EU but one which has to be done.
            At that point the Prime Minister - and it will not be Theresa May - should just rip up the Withdrawal Agreement and walk away with huge public acclaim, whilst the prestige of the EU sinks as its dishonest and bad faith mentality are revealed to all.
            And by doing that she would also renegade the Irish peace agreements which rely on the things guaranteed by the backstop. Standing by an existing peace treaty will not cause much issues to the EU, the UK however renegading such a thing would heavily influence the UK standing in the world. Additionally it would show that the UK could not be expected to shoulder its responsibilities either.
            It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

            Comment


            • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

              As things stand now, the only viable alternative to May and her Tories is Labour -- led by Jeremy Corbyn. While you no doubt very much approve of Corbyn's ardent Brexit stance, how well can you tolerate a PM who considers himself the reincarnation of Che Guevara?
              TM has said she will step down as leader before the next General Election. IF she wants to get the withdrawal agreement through she may agree to step down after that goes through.

              Theresa May may be lame, she may be stupid, but at least she's not insane.
              If she insists in carrying on as PM after Brexit after all that she has been through I think a case could be made for her to be sectioned under the mental health act!

              Comment


              • ^ If May steps aside as Tory leader, then the door is wide open for Corbyn. After that, you'll get your much-desired hard Brexit -- and all Britons will be addressing each other as "comrade."

                Hope Brexit is worth all that . . . .
                I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                  That is not quite what the backstop is. Besides if the UK has valid and actually functional 'alternative solutions' then you have nothing to fear. Reality however is - like Sabine Weyand said - that the UK negotiators have not been able to provide examples of such. Nor have the EU staff.
                  This again

                  You need to realize that the EU will welcome alternative solutions if the UK can actually provide any.
                  That would be a lie.

                  And by doing that she would also renegade the Irish peace agreements which rely on the things guaranteed by the backstop. Standing by an existing peace treaty will not cause much issues to the EU, the UK however renegading such a thing would heavily influence the UK standing in the world. Additionally it would show that the UK could not be expected to shoulder its responsibilities either.
                  That fantasy of yours, again.

                  You need to catch up with the UK's plans for the border in event of a 'No- deal' https://www.gov.uk/guidance/eu-exit-...-deal-scenario

                  Also the likely response of the WTO

                  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47559880

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                    ^ If May steps aside as Tory leader, then the door is wide open for Corbyn. After that, you'll get your much-desired hard Brexit -- and all Britons will be addressing each other as "comrade."

                    Hope Brexit is worth all that . . . .
                    Hmm ... I think almost any Tory leader, except maybe Rees-Mogg, would beat Corbyn.

                    Plus there is no general election until 2022.
                    Hopefully.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                      Hmm ... I think almost any Tory leader, except maybe Rees-Mogg, would beat Corbyn.

                      Plus there is no general election until 2022.
                      Hopefully.
                      I can't see how, given all this Brexit kerfuffle over the last couple of months -- in which it appears that her own party has no confidence in her government -- how May CAN'T call a general election. She's every bit as hobbled as that gasbag Gordon Brown was the last few months of his staggeringly ineffective premiership.

                      And maybe that's why, despite the backbenchers' blanket rejection of all of May's Brexit deals, they've yet to call for an actual no-confidence vote: if May's out, then there's no one of requisite gravitas to keep Corbyn in the opposition.

                      "Comrade Prime Minister": kinda has a ring to it.
                      I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                        This again
                        Yes. Because it seems too difficult for you to grasp. No one has been able to find such alternative solutions so far.
                        That would be a lie.
                        Because of what exactly? What i posted was in line with what both Barnier and Weyand have stated. Just because you disagree with it doesn't make it into a lie.
                        That fantasy of yours, again.

                        You need to catch up with the UK's plans for the border in event of a 'No- deal' https://www.gov.uk/guidance/eu-exit-...-deal-scenario
                        Which doesn't resolve anything really. UK trying to ignore the existence of the border (which is pretty much what the document you provided outlines) doesn't make it go away.
                        Also the likely response of the WTO
                        Which would likely find the UK plan to be in breach with WTO rules. And regardless it is not something the UK could unilaterally decide (even the security exemption needs to be approved by WTO).
                        It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                          Yes. Because it seems too difficult for you to grasp. No one has been able to find such alternative solutions so far.
                          Smart borders. They may not yet solve all the issues, but they are the starting point. To dismiss it as fantasy and unicorns as the EU has done just shows that they are the dishonest ones arguing in bad faith.

                          Because of what exactly? What i posted was in line with what both Barnier and Weyand have stated. Just because you disagree with it doesn't make it into a lie.
                          We've been over this. Your obstinacy is trollish.

                          Which doesn't resolve anything really. UK trying to ignore the existence of the border (which is pretty much what the document you provided outlines) doesn't make it go away.
                          Means the EU has to start sensible, respectful negotiations.

                          Which would likely find the UK plan to be in breach with WTO rules.
                          In the delusion that somehow the WTO would agree with the EU

                          "Even if other WTO members believe they are being disadvantaged by the rules and complain to the WTO, the lengthy disputes process means it would take "many years" before it could allow other members to impose reciprocal tariffs on UK exports.
                          If a complaint was made, the UK would then be "obliged" to consult with the other country over a 60-day period to try to resolve their differences.
                          He added that only after that 60-day period could they even begin the process of launching what's called a "WTO dispute", which takes a year to come to a conclusion.
                          He argued that if the UK has decided it is comfortable being in breach of the rules, or willing to deal with the consequences, little would change in the immediate aftermath."


                          And regardless it is not something the UK could unilaterally decide (even the security exemption needs to be approved by WTO).
                          Man, you are really quite deranged. It is the WTO, not NATO


                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                            Smart borders. They may not yet solve all the issues, but they are the starting point. To dismiss it as fantasy and unicorns as the EU has done just shows that they are the dishonest ones arguing in bad faith.
                            At the current state they are fantasy and unicorns. That is exactly what the inability of UK Brexit team to provide any actual concrete examples means. If you disagree then provide actual links to real and concrete solutions for such a smart border with technical details and implementation methods. In fact you do not even need to post it to me. Just mail it to the UK Brexit team. They certainly are not aware of such or they would have presented one for the EU already.
                            We've been over this. Your obstinacy is trollish.
                            Just because it doesn't fit what you imagine doesn't mean it would be wrong or false. Have you ever considered that you may not be infallible?
                            Means the EU has to start sensible, respectful negotiations.
                            The EU has been doing that from the start. Barnier's stair slide shows what can be done. Those limits are not something which can be negotiated. Otherwise you are repeating the same old UK wish of having their cake and eating it too. That won't work.
                            In the delusion that somehow the WTO would agree with the EU
                            Sure. But other countries would then in all likelihood retaliate in kind and use the exact same method for protecting themselves from the consequences. You do understand that other countries can game the system in the exact same manner? Or did you imagine that it was only a privilege afforded for the UK?
                            Man, you are really quite deranged. It is the WTO, not NATO
                            It seems you didn't really understand even the content you yourself linked here
                            It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

                              I can't see how, given all this Brexit kerfuffle over the last couple of months -- in which it appears that her own party has no confidence in her government -- how May CAN'T call a general election. She's every bit as hobbled as that gasbag Gordon Brown was the last few months of his staggeringly ineffective premiership.

                              And maybe that's why, despite the backbenchers' blanket rejection of all of May's Brexit deals, they've yet to call for an actual no-confidence vote: if May's out, then there's no one of requisite gravitas to keep Corbyn in the opposition.

                              "Comrade Prime Minister": kinda has a ring to it.
                              Actually Slick, that's what's really p*ss*ng us off up here;

                              Despite the current Conservative government being utterly useless, it'd still take a miracle for Labour to win a General Election. It's an incredible irony that the only party in Westminster that's half-way competent is the SNP - a party whose avowed intent is not to be there.
                              Indyref2 - still, "Yes."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                                It seems you didn't really understand even the content you yourself linked here
                                If ever Brexiter finally get a grip at what and how WTO actually run, they will launch Leave.WTO

                                Comment

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