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  • #76
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post

    The German people don't actually benefit from that either.
    Correct, seven EU countries, including Ireland and Finland have a higher GDP per head than Germany.

    The US which has had a trade deficit for years is much richer than Germany.


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...al)_per_capita
    "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Gooner View Post

      That's what the bureaucrat and the politician would say. The businessman and the consumer see it different.
      Sounds like the last spasm of the weird meme that was originally bandied about about how the German car industry would wring Merkel's arm, to wring everyone else's arms, and this give the UK whatever kind of cherry-picked Brexit deal it might like.

      The German car industry came down on the side of the continued protection of the EU common market, even at Brexit cost.

      The businessman and consumer is interested in clear rules and predictability. (Well, who knows these days, maybe not in the UK? But it's still true elsewhere.) If the UK would be allowed to screw up the EU common market ground rules for its own purposes, the compounded processes of renegotiations and potential unravelling of the common market would completely screw all clarity and predictability.

      The EU negotiations team has a remit and an objective based in safe guarding the common market. The UK cake-style-proposals hasve been of the kind that it would compromise it. The UK cannot successfully propose anything that doesn't take this into consideration.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
        Oh, the "curb" thing might need some work...

        What this highlights is of course how momentous the event of the UK leaving the EU, including the common market, customs union etc., is going to be, and how amazing it is that a serious UK debate about the significance of it all, and what might need doing in the form of national mobilization to handle the situation, has apparently not even started yet.

        The UK could make even the above work, provided the scenarios was clearly laid out, the the necessary actions itemized and adressed.

        Politically that would not seem to be possible though. Which is what I gather Surrey's OP is responding to. Bugger all has been done to realistically prepare, and so the expectation is of one last Great Fudge, whereby the UK ends up as Bigger Norway. Which isn't necessarily a horrible situation to be in. Even if it comes with all manner of strings still attached to the EU, in order not to crash the nation's economy, but rather to reap the benefits of the EU.
        Yes, it is truly remarkable that the UK has done so little work in this area.
        I was at a conference on international quality standards development recently and a speaker from UKAS was quite blunt in saying that nothing of substance had been done by the UK in that area either.
        "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
        validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
        "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Surrey View Post

          Correct, seven EU countries, including Ireland and Finland have a higher GDP per head than Germany.

          The US which has had a trade deficit for years is much richer than Germany.


          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...al)_per_capita
          Just because other countries have a higher GDP than Germany that doesn't mean that the German people don't benefit from Germany having an undervalued currency. GNI is a better measure of real national wealth and even if Germany still isn't higher than Ireland using that measure Germany is still richer. If I earn €40,000 for 20 years and by neighbour earns €60,000 during that same period I don't suddenly become richer than him if I get a pay increase to €70,000. There is a much greater depth of wealth in Germany than Ireland.
          "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
          validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
          "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

            Just because other countries have a higher GDP than Germany that doesn't mean that the German people don't benefit from Germany having an undervalued currency. GNI is a better measure of real national wealth and even if Germany still isn't higher than Ireland using that measure Germany is still richer. If I earn €40,000 for 20 years and by neighbour earns €60,000 during that same period I don't suddenly become richer than him if I get a pay increase to €70,000. There is a much greater depth of wealth in Germany than Ireland.
            Much greater depth of wealth ? That's why 16% of the German pensioners are living in poverty .

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            • #81
              Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

              Just because other countries have a higher GDP than Germany that doesn't mean that the German people don't benefit from Germany having an undervalued currency. GNI is a better measure of real national wealth and even if Germany still isn't higher than Ireland using that measure Germany is still richer. If I earn €40,000 for 20 years and by neighbour earns €60,000 during that same period I don't suddenly become richer than him if I get a pay increase to €70,000. There is a much greater depth of wealth in Germany than Ireland.
              I think German exporters benefit greatly from an undervalued currency, not the people.
              As for depth of wealth, doesn't Germany have one of the lowest levels of home ownership in Europe?
              In fact I can recall reading that poor Italy has a higher rate of second home ownership than Germany does the first home.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                I think German exporters benefit greatly from an undervalued currency, not the people.
                The people in Germany who work for the exporters benefit ergo the people benefit. They also benefit from the taxes those exporters pay.

                Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                As for depth of wealth, doesn't Germany have one of the lowest levels of home ownership in Europe?
                In fact I can recall reading that poor Italy has a higher rate of second home ownership than Germany does the first home.
                There are other ways to measure wealth than home ownership.

                "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                Comment


                • #83
                  UK poverty rates https://www.jrf.org.uk/press/uk-pove...-turning-point

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                    As for depth of wealth, doesn't Germany have one of the lowest levels of home ownership in Europe?
                    In fact I can recall reading that poor Italy has a higher rate of second home ownership than Germany does the first home.
                    Correct, Germany has the lowest such rate in the EU. Otoh the UK is nr 4 from the bottom, so if that's supposed to indicate slouch-levels, then the UK is no great shakes either.

                    Otoh the Swiss, who are SERIOUSLY in the money also compared to the Germans, have even lower rates of home ownership, by a decent margin too.

                    There's a fetish about home ownership in many parts of southern Europe, one of the aspects is that homes cannot be repossessed to pay for outstanding debts. Northern Europe is at times perceived as seriously inhuman since real estate (people's homes) like that can and will be expropriated. What it doesn't necessarily indicate is wealth or economic performance in general. Romania is King in this respect otherwise, 96% home ownership rate.

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                    • #85
                      Poverty rates in Germany are around the same as the UK.

                      "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                      validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                      "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                        There are other ways to measure wealth than home ownership.
                        You don't know the UK. The cost of your house is THE most important thing in life. You are considered a second-class citizen if you don't own your house. Your whole working life is geared towards buying and selling your house and 'improving' your social standing by moving up the property ladder. People hold parties where they chatter endlessly about how much their house has increased in value since last week. There are so many foreign crooks buying property in London that ordinary people can no longer afford to live in the centre and the people who do the cooking and cleaning for the great and the good are herded together in sub-standard blocks of high-rise flats that are death traps when a fire breaks out. There is legislation that means builders of luxury apartments have to provide a small number of 'Affordable' housing units in some of their developments and those who can not wriggle out of this condition now include a back-door to their buildings and those in the affordable units are forced to use it to enter the building. They are forbidden by their tenancy agreements from using the front door.

                        https://www.theguardian.com/society/...n-london-flats

                        No European can ever understand the depth of the UK obsession to be a home owner. It is the most defining thing about your social status.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                          The people in Germany who work for the exporters benefit ergo the people benefit. They also benefit from the taxes those exporters pay.
                          Don't think thats really evident in the wages German workers receive? Plus they are paying more for imported stuff than they would otherwise, like heating, electricity, petrol etc

                          There are other ways to measure wealth than home ownership.
                          As an asset it usually is included in wealth assessments.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                            Poverty rates in Germany are around the same as the UK.
                            The level at which your betters consider you to be 'in poverty' generally rises at about 2-3% per annum.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                              Don't think thats really evident in the wages German workers receive?
                              Average wages in Germany are slightly higher than in the UK.

                              Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                              Plus they are paying more for imported stuff than they would otherwise, like heating, electricity, petrol etc
                              Are they?


                              Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                              As an asset it usually is included in wealth assessments.
                              Yes, along with everything else.

                              "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                              validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                              "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Anyway, back on topic; what do posters thing the likelihood is that the exit date will be extended?
                                "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                                validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                                "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                                Comment

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