Brexit

[slick_miester]

Just to be clear i would consider it to be strange if some one started referring to 'Finland' as 'Suomi' or to 'Sweden' as 'Sverige' on English language discussions (but of course i will reserve the right to call it 'Svärje' )

Some four million Irish migrated to the United States during the middle years of the 19th century, and a good many of their descendants have maintained an interest in things Irish: cultural, political, etc. Consequently, one may hear Ireland -- either the nation-state or the geographical island or both -- referred to as Éire with some frequency. By comparison, relatively few Finns migrated to the US, and their descendants haven't preserved Finnish culture to nearly the same extent as have Irish-Americans. Large numbers of Germans migrated to the US during the 19th century, consequently most Americans are at least aware that Germany in German is Deutschland.

[slick_miester]

The country, the State, the political entity, is called Ireland or, if speaking in Irish, Éire. It is not the Republic of Ireland, Dublin, the republic of Éire.

Are you trying to have your cake and eat it too? How does one say "Republic of Ireland" in Irish/Gaelic? "Dublin" would refer to the Irish government, the way "DC" refers to the US Federal government, the way "Albany" refers to the NYS government, the way "City Hall" refers to the NYC gov't, the way that Westminster refers to the UK's parliament, the way that Whitehall refers to the UK's governmental administrative apparatus, the way that Hollywood refers to the film industry in Southern California. That I would have laid good money that you'd already have known, but I guess I was wrong. . . .

Six of the nine counties of Ulster are part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It is worth noting that the most Northerly county on the Island of Ireland is Donegal. Donegal is in Ulster but not part of the province of Northern Ireland. The majority of the people in Ulster do not want to be part of the UK but the majority of the people in the province of Northern Ireland do want to be part of the UK.

I'm offering no statement on my view of the issue. To be frank, I think that there are points of validity from both sides, as well as points of shame. What I'm trying to determine here is if "Éire" signifies the Irish Republic in as few keystrokes as possible.

In short none of it is simple so, in all agreements between the two countries "Ireland" refers to the country and "Northern Ireland" refers to the province which is part of the UK. That was part of the background agreement made at the time of the Anglo-Irish Agreement in 1985 and has continued since. It also minimises any offence, deliberate or otherwise, which may occur.

"Korea" is a peninsula. The political entities are North Korea and South Korea, or DPRK and RoK. "The Carolinas" are a geographic region; the political entities are North Carolina and South Carolina, or NC and SC. My question is, if "Ulster" signifies the six counties of Northern Ireland still in union with the United Kingdom -- an acknowledged political entity -- then what shorthand device signifies the Republic of Ireland? Would "Éire" so suffice?

[johns624]

By comparison, relatively few Finns migrated to the US, and their descendants haven't preserved Finnish culture to nearly the same extent as have Irish-Americans.

You've never been to da UP, have you?

[Surrey]

Are you trying to have your cake and eat it too? How does one say "Republic of Ireland" in Irish/Gaelic? "Dublin" would refer to the Irish government, the way "DC" refers to the US Federal government, the way "Albany" refers to the NYS government, the way "City Hall" refers to the NYC gov't, the way that Westminster refers to the UK's parliament, the way that Whitehall refers to the UK's governmental administrative apparatus, the way that Hollywood refers to the film industry in Southern California. That I would have laid good money that you'd already have known, but I guess I was wrong. . . .



I'm offering no statement on my view of the issue. To be frank, I think that there are points of validity from both sides, as well as points of shame. What I'm trying to determine here is if "Éire" signifies the Irish Republic in as few keystrokes as possible.



"Korea" is a peninsula. The political entities are North Korea and South Korea, or DPRK and RoK. "The Carolinas" are a geographic region; the political entities are North Carolina and South Carolina, or NC and SC. My question is, if "Ulster" signifies the six counties of Northern Ireland still in union with the United Kingdom -- an acknowledged political entity -- then what shorthand device signifies the Republic of Ireland? Would "Éire" so suffice?

Thinking about it Éire refers to the whole island of Ireland so if anyone is going to be offended by its use to describe the nation state of Ireland then it would be the Ulster Protestants loyal to the UK. Using the term Éire or Ireland could be construed as making a claim on the whole island.
Personally I have always used Ireland, Éire, Republic of Ireland and Southern Ireland interchangeably. They all mean the same thing and the first three are all in official use in one way or another by the Irish state.
At the end end of the day people should be a lot less touchy about these things.

[E.D. Morel]

then what shorthand device signifies the Republic of Ireland? Would "Éire" so suffice?

Ireland.

If you are referring to the 6 counties of Ulster which form the provence of Northern Ireland then you use the term "Northern Ireland".
If you are referring to Ireland and Northern Ireland collectively then you use the term "The island of Ireland".

[E.D. Morel]

Thinking about it Éire refers to the whole island of Ireland so if anyone is going to be offended by its use to describe the nation state of Ireland then it would be the Ulster Protestants loyal to the UK. Using the term Éire or Ireland could be construed as making a claim on the whole island.

Ireland was part of the UK before we gained our freedom. Should the term UK be changed because we are no longer part of it?
Ireland was Ireland before it was partitioned by the British. They don't get to take our name as well.

Personally I have always used Ireland, Éire, Republic of Ireland and Southern Ireland interchangeably. They all mean the same thing and the first three are all in official use in one way or another by the Irish state.
At the end end of the day people should be a lot less touchy about these things.

I'm just pointing out to you that that in your ignorance you are using the wrong name for my country. The name of the State is Ireland. It is a Republic so referring to it as the Republic of Ireland is legally correct. "Southern Ireland" is really offensive. I wwouldn't use that term here unless you wanted to start a fight.

[E.D. Morel]

Some history on the issue here.
Look under the section "Name dispute with the UK".

[Gooner]

Ireland was Ireland before it was partitioned by the British. They don't get to take our name as well.

Ireland was never a country before the British. The island was partitioned by the Irish and British. Westminster would have been more than happy for all Ireland to get Home Rule but the Nationalists preferred a hard exit,

"Southern Ireland" is really offensive. I wwouldn't use that term here unless you wanted to start a fight.

In the North they refer to the Republic as "down Sout'"

[E.D. Morel]

Ireland was never a country before the British.

It was a kingdom with a high king and sub-kings. It wasn't a country in the modern sense because those entities didn't exist when the English invaded. It always had a collective identity, a unified standard legal system (the high king was subject to the law of the land in Ireland a thousand years before the English king signed the Magna Carta) , and the Irish people always wanted to be free. The people who were planted here obviously wanted to maintain their minority rule and the puppet Irish Parliament they put in place reflected the views of that small planter minority who could vote in it.

The island was partitioned by the Irish and British. Westminster would have been more than happy for all Ireland to get Home Rule but the Nationalists preferred a hard exit,

You need to do a bit more reading on that.

In the North they refer to the Republic as "down Sout'"

They do indeed, and they call Catholics "Fenians" and call black people "niggers" and homosexual people "queers" and everyone who looks like they are from India and Pakistan "pakies".

[Gooner]

Not really. He is not a commissioner. Main point of complaint seems to be that he makes the composition of Commission civil service too German. Yet the fact is that the Commission can force him out. And hence - in a sense - can the EU Parliament. I really don't care if he German or not as long as he does his job.

"The European Parliament yesterday (13 December) adopted a resolution, with a majority of 71%, that calls for the resignation of Martin Selmayr, the former right-hand man of Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker whose rushed promotion earlier this year was criticised as “a coup-like action”.

Juncker’s former chief of staff was promoted to the post of secretary-general of the European Commission last February, seizing a position considered to be one of the most influential in Brussels."

https://www.euractiv.com/section/eu-...s-resignation/

Apparently Selmayr is now the most powerful man in the EU and the EU Parliament cannot get rid of him. Haha.

You mean the rules which guarantee MFN and hence force there to be border checks?

Not MFN but yes, Article 24 and you are going to really have to get your head round the fact that there won't be border checks in Ireland. So you're be best just taking what will be on offer



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[Gooner]

It was a kingdom with a high king and sub-kings. It wasn't a country in the modern sense because those entities didn't exist when the English invaded. It always had a collective identity, a unified standard legal system (the high king was subject to the law of the land in Ireland a thousand years before the English king signed the Magna Carta) , and the Irish people always wanted to be free. The people who were planted here obviously wanted to maintain their minority rule and the puppet Irish Parliament they put in place reflected the views of that small planter minority who could vote in it.

Very primitive law and political organisation compared to what the Anglo-Normans brought along.


They do indeed, and they call Catholics "Fenians" and call black people "niggers" and homosexual people "queers" and everyone who looks like they are from India and Pakistan "pakies".[/QUOTE]

Nah, Fenians and Huns all seem to call it "down sout'"

[slick_miester]

Westminster would have been more than happy for all Ireland to get Home Rule but the Nationalists preferred a hard exit,

Point of fact:

Ulster will fight -- and Ulster will be right! - Randolph Churchill

Along with Winnie's dad, on the eve of WW1, one of the RN's leading flag officers, Adm Charles Beresford, threatened mass mutiny among the British armed forces' Ulstermen if Asquith's Liberal government passed a Home Rule bill. If Irish nationalists preferred a hard exit, then quite clearly Unionists preferred no kind of Irish autonomy whatsoever, and they were willing to make their point with armed force.

[Vaeltaja]

Apparently Selmayr is now the most powerful man in the EU and the EU Parliament cannot get rid of him. Haha.

Actually they can. That requires kicking out Juncker and allowing only such new EU Commission be formed (since it needs to be approved by the EU Parliament) which gives the boot to the Selmayr. But then again i think it would be rather bad precedent. It seems to me that in the long run it would be far better to make the current process far more transparent and/or (if some one really wants to have a 'nuclear' option) allow the EU Parliament direct option to censor certain persons from such posts.

Not MFN but yes, Article 24 and you are going to really have to get your head round the fact that there won't be border checks in Ireland. So you're be best just taking what will be on offer

Article 24 of GATT won't be of any help for any one. If you insist that there won't be border checks then you need to agree to the backstop. It is that simple. You can not have your cake and eat it too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfk0FSa9MR4 - GATT article 24 for dummies

EDIT: Or this: https://youtu.be/sRlQ6x1V96U?t=10 - About GATT article 24, and how it is not unilateral and how just any one of the WTO member states (like say, Russia) would be able to block it even in the remote case that both the UK and the EU wanted it. And how it doesn't even apply in the case of Brexit due to the requirements of the article 24.

[slick_miester]

It’s the name of my country in Irish. We are conversing in English. The reason it is offensive in the context of a political discussion is because of the refusal by Northern Irish Unionists and British people to acknowledge that this is Ireland, not Eire, not the Republic of Ireland, just Ireland. It is a hangover from the British colonial past when we were a British colony, planted by British loyalists and ruled by a puppet Parliament set up and elected by those Planters. When we got our freedom the Tory establishment wouldn’t even acknowledge or use the name of our country.

In all treaties between the UK and Ireland we are referred to by our correct name and collective we are referred to as “these islands” and not the politically loaded term “British Isles”.

Its just good nanners, like not calling black peoples darkies or coons or niggers.

When I first read this, I brushed it off as the usual "squeaky wheel gets the oil" nonsense. Further reading, however, has revealed that this is a genuine political circus.

Article 4 of the Irish constitution adopted in 1937 by the government under Éamon de Valera states that Éire is the name of the state, or in the English language, Ireland.^[4] The Constitution's English-language preamble also described the population as "We, the people of Éire". Despite the fact that Article 8 designated Irish as the "national" and "first official" language, Éire has to some extent passed out of everyday conversation and literature, and the state is referred to as Ireland or its equivalent in all other languages. The name "Éire" has been used on Irish postage stamps since 1922;^[5] on all Irish coinage (including Irish euro coins); and together with "Ireland" on passports and other official state documents issued since 1937. "Éire" is used on the Seal of the President of Ireland.

Initially after independence the United Kingdom insisted on using only the name "Eire" and refused to accept the name "Ireland". It adopted the Eire (Confirmation of Agreements) Act 1938 putting in law that position. At the 1948 Summer Olympics in London the organisers insisted that the Irish team march under the banner "Eire" notwithstanding that every other team was marching according to what their name was in English.^[6] The UK Government used what some Irish politicians stated were "sneering titles such as Eirish".^[7] The UK Government would refer to "Eire Ministers" and the "Eireann Army" and generally avoid all reference to "Ireland" in connection with the state. The Ireland Act 1949 changed this to "Republic of Ireland". It was not until after the 1998 Good Friday Agreement that the UK government accepted the preferred name of simply "Ireland", at the same time as Ireland dropped its territorial claim over Northern Ireland.

Before the 1937 Constitution, "Saorstát Éireann" (the Irish name of the Irish Free State) was generally used.^[8]


Wikipedia

"Ireland," "Éire," "Eire": each carries political baggage -- but only because each term has been so laden by the political creatures that inhabit Westminster and its Dublin counterpart. Some guy -- Englishman, Irishman, or Ulsterman, it matters not -- gets up on a soap box and proclaims that he's just like you, and then he expounds on how you should be like him. Tw*ts from Sinn Fein and DUP have spent countless hours and gallons of ink telling their erstwhile constituents what they have to do in order to be real Irishmen or Ulstermen. What really are these politicians doing? They're telling you how you can make yourself worthy of their rarefied personages -- the politicians' rarefied personages. That's what they're doing. So how does an Irishman prove himself worthy of Sinn Fein? By killing Ulstermen. And how does an Ulsterman prove himself worthy of DUP? By killing Irishmen.

Can't find it now, but I recall the running correspondence between two Irish republicans who both earned distinction in the US Civil War: Patrick Cleburne, Maj Gen CSA -- and Thomas Francis Meagher, Brig Gen USA. Meagher wrote to Cleburne wishing for a quick conclusion to the US Civil War, so that they'd both then be freed to drive the British from Ireland -- to whit Cleburne responded that he'd seen enough of war to last him the rest of his life. One needn't wonder too hard which officer the political windbags who'd make a stink over "Ireland vs Éire" resemble.

[Gooner]

Point of fact:

Ulster will fight -- and Ulster will be right! - Randolph Churchill

Along with Winnie's dad, on the eve of WW1, one of the RN's leading flag officers, Adm Charles Beresford, threatened mass mutiny among the British armed forces' Ulstermen if Asquith's Liberal government passed a Home Rule bill. If Irish nationalists preferred a hard exit, then quite clearly Unionists preferred no kind of Irish autonomy whatsoever, and they were willing to make their point with armed force.

The Unionists certainly threatened to fight, probably would have fought and stopped several Home Rule bills, but in the event it was the Nationalists/Republicans that began the violence that led to the Irish Republic.

Quite probably a 'soft' exit of the whole of Ireland was impossible,