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  • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
    And the "alternative arrangement" proposal will be ready for review, when ?
    Is the EU willing to negotiate?

    Personally I was in favour of having the negotiations out in the open. PMTM unfortunately was not.

    Comment


    • These MPs know that they can earn half a million a year in Europe after a few years working in parliament. That's why they are akin to a pig squealing as its being dragged from the trough. That's the gauge of the of the scum Remainers.
      Remainer MP spokesman response on behalf of the rest in his pen.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRgH7HvmSiE

      Second referendum Remainers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNsKxHEAlyA and

      Paul
      Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 30 Jan 19, 07:41.
      ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
      All human ills he can subdue,
      Or with a bauble or medal
      Can win mans heart for you;
      And many a blessing know to stew
      To make a megloamaniac bright;
      Give honour to the dainty Corse,
      The Pixie is a little shite.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

        Is the EU willing to negotiate?

        Personally I was in favour of having the negotiations out in the open. PMTM unfortunately was not.
        Well if TM shows up in Brussels she will be received I imagine, it would be very unpolite to just leave her standing in the street

        Question is what she can come up with in 2 months that has not been already discussed in the previous 2,5 years.

        The UK parliament was not very helpful in that regard.

        And then of course this alternative arrangement needs to be agreed to by the member states (Ireland ?) and presumably the British house again.

        All before March 29 ?
        Last edited by Snowygerry; 30 Jan 19, 07:34.
        High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
        Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

          Question is what she can come up with in 2 months that has not been already discussed in the previous 2,5 years.

          The UK parliament was not very helpful in that regard.

          And then of course this alternative arrangement needs to be agreed to by the member states (Ireland ?) and presumably the British house again.

          All before March 29 ?

          " There has been a lot of talk over the last couple of days about the so-called ‘Malthouse Compromise’, but what does it actually entail? Below is a summary of the proposals.

          Plan A – Revise negotiated Withdrawal Agreement and Framework

          Outline:
          • Immediately table legal text to amend the Withdrawal Agreement to replace the backstop with an acceptable indefinite solution set out in A Better Deal, 12 Dec 2019
          • Maintain our offer on the rights of EU citizens in the UK, the agreed financial settlement, and the proposed Implementation Period
            (IP) until no later than Dec 2021, or sooner on conclusion of the Future Relationship (FR)
          • Require that, at the end of the IP or sooner, the UK shall negotiate fisheries access as an independent coastal state, under UNCLOS

          Advantages
          • Rescues the Withdrawal Agreement
          • Maximises leverage plus secure a transition period
          • No backstop dangers: the new protocol is permanent, a “frontstop” and should be objectively acceptable to all.

          Disadvantages
          • Uncertainty continues until the FR is ratified
          • Difficulty of persuading Eurosceptics to swallow:
          • – £39bn payment
          • – Saving the effect of the ECA during the IP
          • – Additional EU citizens’ rights
          • – Other WA problems (DSC, CCP vs WTO)

          Plan B – Basic transition agreement

          Outline:
          • Continue to offer legal text for Plan A and bilateral cooperation in areas of mutual interest, including security, in a spirit of goodwill
            and cooperation
          • Unilaterally guarantee EU citizens’ rights
          • Uphold current standards, pending a comprehensive FR
          • Offer to pay our net contribution (c.£10bn pa) in exchange for the Implementation Period as negotiated, until no later than Dec 2021
          • Require that, at the end of the IP or sooner, the UK shall negotiate fisheries access as an independent coastal state, under UNCLOS
          • Work to agree an interim GATT XXIV compliant trading arrangement, pending a comprehensive FR
          • Revise our financial offer to the minimum compatible with our public law international obligations and submit to arbitration

          Advantages
          • Offers a standstill to 2021 to enable negotiations
          • Preserves optionality
          • Secures time
          • Secures exit

          Disadvantages
          • Risks EU conditions, legislation, extension
          • No Withdrawal Agreement
          • Eurosceptic concern about:
          • – Structure of standstill, esp saving ECA effect
          • – Money

          https://www.conservativehome.com/par...e-entails.html

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
            " There has been a lot of talk over the last couple of days about the so-called ‘Malthouse Compromise’, but what does it actually entail? Below is a summary of the proposals.
            Problem again is that it (the 'A Better Deal' to which it is based) ventures in to the fantasy realm... Reading from the linked document to the ABD... Take (from the list of listed amendments) #2 and #6 and describe how can that work? It is demanding both separate customs regimes while also demanding that there must not be (customs) border on the island of Ireland. That is again an attempt at having a cake and eating it too - it ain't going to fly. Suggested amendment #8 can not be accepted either - the divorce 'settlement' is not something that can be tied to trade agreements. And so on...

            And I'm not alone in my assessment: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ireland-border "There’s just one problem, that, from what we can gather of the so-called “Malthouse compromise”, it stands no chance of being acceptable to the EU"

            https://www.theguardian.com/politics...nsition-period - and it seems to have already been rejected as fantasy by the EU.
            Last edited by Vaeltaja; 30 Jan 19, 09:04.
            It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
              Problem again is that it (the 'A Better Deal' to which it is based) ventures in to the fantasy realm...
              You back the EU like you would back your football team. Blind loyalty.

              Reading from the linked document to the ABD... Take (from the list of listed amendments) #2 and #6 and describe how can that work? It is demanding both separate customs regimes while also demanding that there must not be (customs) border on the island of Ireland. That is again an attempt at having a cake and eating it too - it ain't going to fly.
              Numbers 2 and 6 of what, where? There are quite a lot of number 2s and 6s in what is a very fair proposal.

              Suggested amendment #8 can not be accepted either - the divorce 'settlement' is not something that can be tied to trade agreements. And so on...
              Suggest that the EU needs to revise its opinion on that or its going to be seriously out of pocket.
              The EU seems to see that divorce bill as an expected tribute.

              And I'm not alone in my assessment: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ireland-border "There’s just one problem, that, from what we can gather of the so-called “Malthouse compromise”, it stands no chance of being acceptable to the EU"

              https://www.theguardian.com/politics...nsition-period - and it seems to have already been rejected as fantasy by the EU.
              The Grauniad is just about the most hysterical of the remain papers. You need to broaden your reading to get a better understanding.

              Sad that the deputy chief negotiator for the EU Sabine Weyand pretends that technology for the Smart Border does not exist. https://www.larskarlsson.com/?p=5298


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              Comment


              • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                It is rather difficult for me to comment US thing from here. I only pointed out that here things do not work in similar manner.
                It's called clicking on the link. Is it a characteristic of Finnish culture to eschew effort?

                Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                If you need to ask that then you really didn't understand what was being discussed.
                When all the chaff is blown away, I'm not aware of any segment of the British workforce in need of protectionist help. If you are, then, by all means, share you knowledge with the congregation.

                Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                Again an expression that i have no idea how to decipher.
                "The proof is in the pudding" - the secular British equivalent to Matthew 17:16: "Ye shall know them by their fruits."

                Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                As to the rest... Yes, well-educated. And preparedness really demands on the work in question. As to the last part - it is rather difficult to say without knowing what those ambiguous terms refer to.
                Swedish automobiles of the 1970s and '80s were -- in my humble opinion -- among the most desirable from anywhere in the world. (I owned a '92 Volvo 240, and she still rates as my favorite ride.) Scotland is renowned for her whiskeys, France for her wines and cheeses, Germany for BMW, Bologna for Ducati and Maranello for Ferrari and Naples for crime. Mohawks are considered the best ironworkers, Mexicans the best fighters and soldiers. When people think "Finland" or "Finns," what products or services spring to the world's mind? Nokia was hot for a while, but it appears that the iphone caught them flatfooted. I know that Finnish firms produce some outstanding military and sporting rifles, but that's rather a niche market. What products do Finns make that can make them worth a premium, what traits do Finnish workers exhibit that renders them among the best in their fields?

                Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                Huh? It was a planned set duration study. The study ended. Now the results are being analyzed.
                It was an experimental program, established for a set period of time only?

                Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                There not being jobs for every one does not equal with 'refusing to work'.
                US unemployment rate was 3.7% as of 31 Dec 2018.
                UK unemployment rate was 4.0% as of Jul 2018.
                Finland unemployment rate was 7.6% as of Aug 2018.

                Why is Finland's economy unable to generate full employment? (Economists and policy-makers consider "full employment" to be the highest employment level before inflation sets in, traditionally viewed as an unemployment rate of 5%.) Is there some structural failing in Finland's economy that prevents the realization of full employment? Wouldn't addressing that make more sense then experimenting with guaranteed basic income?
                I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                Comment


                • Finland labour participation rate was in 2017 was 76,7 % per OECD where as in US it was 73,7 %. While employment/population ratio was same in US and Finland. Basically Finland fudges less its unemployment rate.
                  "Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery"
                  Robert G. Ingersoll 1833-1899

                  Comment


                  • Finland has an excellent education system, the biggest paper manufacturer in the world and Nokia are still doing okay (€23 billion a year revenue with over 100,000 employees is quite respectable).
                    (I can't believe that ACG can't recognise the Euro symbol!)
                    "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                    validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                    "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                      You back the EU like you would back your football team. Blind loyalty.
                      Not blind loyalty. The EU has made its stance known couple of years back. Things listed in the suggested plan go against them.
                      Numbers 2 and 6 of what, where? There are quite a lot of number 2s and 6s in what is a very fair proposal.
                      If you follow the link that was provided then the the ones that are listed as amendments.
                      Suggest that the EU needs to revise its opinion on that or its going to be seriously out of pocket.
                      The EU seems to see that divorce bill as an expected tribute.
                      Seriously? Is that what you imagine? EU GDP is around $19T, divorce settlement is about $48B so what you are describing is about a quarter of a percent of the EU GDP except in this case the impact would be spread over several years so it would be even smaller. It's share of the EU's own budged is more sizable - about 30% of it but then again EU's budget is very small to begin with. Even if it came to the very worst it would still be just $100 per EU citizen. So I'm fairly confident that it won't be ruining the EU economy.

                      Seriously speaking the EU doesn't need it but it is a legal consequence of the separation so it is insisted upon. In order to create that clean break the UK so wished.
                      The Grauniad is just about the most hysterical of the remain papers. You need to broaden your reading to get a better understanding.

                      Sad that the deputy chief negotiator for the EU Sabine Weyand pretends that technology for the Smart Border does not exist. https://www.larskarlsson.com/?p=5298
                      The EU rejection of that is reported elsewhere too. So that line of argumentation doesn't help your case at all. As to the rest... If the technology exists why are you objecting to the backstop? If it truly is as trivial and easy as you describe surely the new system could be implemented before the transition period would end? Because in such a case the backstop would never even be triggered. So what exactly is your problem with it? Or is that the technology doesn't really exist in a version that could be reliably adapted to the border?
                      It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                        It's called clicking on the link. Is it a characteristic of Finnish culture to eschew effort?
                        No. It was pointing out the rather obvious fact that not every place works like the USA does. Nor would they want to.
                        When all the chaff is blown away, I'm not aware of any segment of the British workforce in need of protectionist help. If you are, then, by all means, share you knowledge with the congregation.
                        The problem is that 'chaff' you are so anxious to get rid off. What you so arrogantly refer to as 'chaff' are still people.
                        "The proof is in the pudding" - the secular British equivalent to Matthew 17:16: "Ye shall know them by their fruits."
                        I'm not a Bible thumper so i have really no idea of that.
                        Swedish automobiles of the 1970s and '80s were -- in my humble opinion -- among the most desirable from anywhere in the world. (I owned a '92 Volvo 240, and she still rates as my favorite ride.) Scotland is renowned for her whiskeys, France for her wines and cheeses, Germany for BMW, Bologna for Ducati and Maranello for Ferrari and Naples for crime. Mohawks are considered the best ironworkers, Mexicans the best fighters and soldiers. When people think "Finland" or "Finns," what products or services spring to the world's mind? Nokia was hot for a while, but it appears that the iphone caught them flatfooted. I know that Finnish firms produce some outstanding military and sporting rifles, but that's rather a niche market. What products do Finns make that can make them worth a premium, what traits do Finnish workers exhibit that renders them among the best in their fields?
                        If that is how you measure things then no wonder why your opinions are so offworldish (or is it outlandish?) to me. We don't really measure things like that here. Try learning of the Law of Jante for example.
                        It was an experimental program, established for a set period of time only?
                        Yes. It was a study. And one which is i believe the government messed up so that its result won't really actually be representative of anything.
                        Wouldn't addressing that make more sense then experimenting with guaranteed basic income?
                        Experimenting with basic income is for the future since practically all predictions indicate that in the future there simply won't be jobs for every one. So in the end (not the one tested) the idea behind it is to create a system where the system guarantees basic income but with the caveat that any work actually done would contribute on top of it. So that there would be incentive to go to part time jobs and but without throwing the unemployed people under the bus either.
                        It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                          "The proof is in the pudding" - the secular British equivalent to Matthew 17:16: "Ye shall know them by their fruits."
                          The proof is not in the pudding, rather "the proof of the pudding is in the eating".
                          It means that it may look nice but what matters is what it taste like, or; talk is cheap, it's the substance of a thing that matters.

                          If the proof was in the pudding then a design or blueprint would be in a pudding which would be a strange thing to base a saying on.
                          "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                          validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                          "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                            Is the EU willing to negotiate?
                            It has. For more than 2 years. Agreement was found and then reject by UK. It's problem. EU simply don't care anymore.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                              If the proof was in the pudding then a design or blueprint would be in a pudding which would be a strange thing to base a saying on.
                              Especially when you consider what you blokes call pudding: gelatinized animal entrails.

                              Here's a rather humorous treatment of the subject:

                              STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: . . . . The proof is in the pudding, he said. Tim Lowe wrote us all the way from Santiago de Cali, Colombia, and he writes the following: Frank, the proof is not in the pudding. It would be a messy, if not completely silly place to keep it. With that in mind, we called Ben Zimmer, language columnist at the Boston Globe.

                              BEN ZIMMER: Well, the proof is in the pudding is a new twist on a very old proverb. The original version is the proof of the pudding is in the eating. And what it meant was that you had to try out food in order to know whether it was good.

                              INSKEEP: Zimmer adds that the word pudding itself has changed. In Britain, dating back centuries, pudding meant more than a sweet dessert.

                              ZIMMER: Back then, pudding referred to a kind of sausage, filling the intestines of some animal with minced meat and other things - something you probably want to try out carefully since that kind of food could be rather treacherous.

                              INSKEEP: OK. So, over the years, the original proverb has evolved. The original was the proof of the pudding is in the eating. It was shortened to the proof of the pudding, and then here in America, it morphed again to the proof is in the pudding. Apparently, the proof of the listening is in the correcting.

                              "The Origin Of 'Proof Is In The Pudding,'" heard on "Morning Edition," National Public Radio, 24 Aug 2012
                              Nice plug in there for the late great Frank Deford, as well.

                              Then again, given how . . . . unappealing English pudding is, maybe the phrase derived from the test for determining alcohol content.

                              The use of the term “proof” in connection with the alcohol content of liquors dates back to 16th-century England. When used in this context, the word refers to “a test, trial or demonstration.” This same usage is found in the well-known maxim “The proof of the pudding is in the eating,” meaning that the test of whether the pudding is a success is in the eating. The proof system is based on the selection of an arbitrary standard (called 100 proof) typical of the alcohol content of distilled liquors and the rating of the alcohol content of other beverages in terms of how much larger or smaller they are relative to this standard. . . . .

                              In 16th-century England, the original test involved soaking a pellet of gunpowder with the liquor. If it was still possible to ignite the wet gunpowder, the alcohol content of the liquor was rated above proof and it was taxed at a higher rate, and vice versa if the powder failed to ignite. . . . .

                              "The Origin of Alcohol 'Proof,'" by William B Jensen, Department of Chemistry, University of Cincinnati, 2004
                              So does that mean that you had to burn the pudding to know if it was any good?
                              Last edited by slick_miester; 30 Jan 19, 12:49.
                              I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                              Comment


                              • Referring to all deserts as "Pudding" is a particularly English thing. I always find it strange.

                                Savory pudding is usually a kind of sausage.
                                "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                                validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                                "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                                Comment

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