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  • #61
    Originally posted by Surrey View Post

    You are right. The UK can make no deal work IF there is the right determination and vision. Lower taxes, lower tariffs, lower regulation, fixing a few necessary admin things like flying.
    The problem is May. She has the mentally of a senior public sector administrator in the civil service or NHS. She is brilliant at scheming, back stabbing, bullying and being seen to be in the right place at the right time. However like public sector managers her entire focus is internal, on getting and holding onto power. She has no external focus; no vision and behaves in a fawning and subservient manner when she meets powerful external individuals such as Merkel. Hence she will give in to any EU demands. The whole idea of the referendum in the first place was to end the continuos and damaging arguments over the EU once and for all. However May has managed to perpetuate them, revitalise UKIP and will give the next election to Corbyn and the Marxists.
    Well, except the EU makes no specific demands. What is has consistently done is declare a general baseline, which is not possible to negotiate about since it forms the base for the continued functioning of the EU Common Market. The problem is that the UK still wants access to that, which means accepting the ground rules.

    At worst it casts the power discrepancy between the UK and an EU that manages to agree on a specific line like this in a harsh light, from the UK's perspective. For the EU members not leaving it rather highlights what the EU does and means when it works for their benefit, why the EU can be a great boon.

    The UK seemingly would still like the EU to operate for the benefit of the UK, even after it leaves the union. Which makes continental observers rather doubt the British resolve.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

      Does that mean you would like to see the UK importing more of its food?
      If it is cheaper and still of adequate quality, why not? It is basic economics. Why should the general population suffer in order to subsidise a reletive handful of rich farmers?
      "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
        Prices are set on the margins and there is a real danger of serious drops in prices for everything from food cars if there is a hard Brexit. While that may be good for consumers in the short term it won't do anyone any good in the longer term.
        The FT discusses a report from the National Institute of Economic and Social Research saying that Services exports will drop by 60% though" signing a free-trade agreement with the EU will not recoup any loss in services exports, but would reduce the long-term fall in goods exports from between 58-65 per cent to between 35-44 per cent"

        https://www.ft.com/content/bfe51444-...5-4e36b35c3550
        Oh, the "curb" thing might need some work...

        What this highlights is of course how momentous the event of the UK leaving the EU, including the common market, customs union etc., is going to be, and how amazing it is that a serious UK debate about the significance of it all, and what might need doing in the form of national mobilization to handle the situation, has apparently not even started yet.

        The UK could make even the above work, provided the scenarios was clearly laid out, the the necessary actions itemized and adressed.

        Politically that would not seem to be possible though. Which is what I gather Surrey's OP is responding to. Bugger all has been done to realistically prepare, and so the expectation is of one last Great Fudge, whereby the UK ends up as Bigger Norway. Which isn't necessarily a horrible situation to be in. Even if it comes with all manner of strings still attached to the EU, in order not to crash the nation's economy, but rather to reap the benefits of the EU.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post

          Well, except the EU makes no specific demands. What is has consistently done is declare a general baseline, which is not possible to negotiate about since it forms the base for the continued functioning of the EU Common Market. The problem is that the UK still wants access to that, which means accepting the ground rules.

          At worst it casts the power discrepancy between the UK and an EU that manages to agree on a specific line like this in a harsh light, from the UK's perspective. For the EU members not leaving it rather highlights what the EU does and means when it works for their benefit, why the EU can be a great boon.

          The UK seemingly would still like the EU to operate for the benefit of the UK, even after it leaves the union. Which makes continental observers rather doubt the British resolve.

          Err … continuing frictionless free trade between the member states of the EU and the UK is in everybodys interest …. except that of the institution of the EU.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Gooner View Post
            Err … continuing frictionless free trade between the member states of the EU and the UK is in everybodys interest …. except that of the institution of the EU.
            Sure, but not at the cost of the integrity of the common market area.
            It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
              Main issue i would guess has been some of the UK statements with regards to fisheries etc. - which also could be resolved with minimal fuss. Irish PM's just seems to be deliberately annoying the British because they have been deliberately (in his opinion) annoying Ireland. You pissed on his shoes so he pisses on your shoes.

              I think its because the Irish have recently lost faith in the Catholic church. Yeah, they've lost their traditional devotion and submission to that supra-national European body who couldn't give a damn about them but luckily have found another

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Gooner View Post


                I think its because the Irish have recently lost faith in the Catholic church. Yeah, they've lost their traditional devotion and submission to that supra-national European body who couldn't give a damn about them but luckily have found another
                Now that is funny.

                We are a bit more Euro-skeptic than we used to be. Generally when countries are getting more out of the trough then they are putting in they are fans but once it becomes about the great European project they are more cynical. The only EU nation that is really willing to buy into the EU dream is Germany and that might be because they know that the Euro makes their exports artificially cheap and allows them to run a massive trade surplus, sucking money out of the rest of the Eurozone and so at least balancing things out.

                As for Ireland, I think we are just hooked on the whole "we want to be like the cool Nordic countries" buzz.
                It's better than the alternative I suppose. We are richer and happier than ever as a nation, way ahead of the UK, so that must mean we are doing something right.
                "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                  Sure, but not at the cost of the integrity of the common market area.
                  That's what the bureaucrat and the politician would say. The businessman and the consumer see it different.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                    Germany and that might be because they know that the Euro makes their exports artificially cheap and allows them to run a massive trade surplus, sucking money out of the rest of the Eurozone and so at least balancing things out.
                    The German people don't actually benefit from that either.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                      The businessman and the consumer see it different.
                      I really doubt that.
                      It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        The UKIP view of the EU still resonates with the Little Englanders. The core of their beliefs are:

                        1. The EU is wholly financed by UK contributions and without any money from the UK they EU will collapse.

                        2. Everyone in The EU is planning to move to the UK so as to live off the generous UK benefits.

                        3. The EU is undemocratic because it refuses to always defer to the UK when a dispute arises.

                        4. The EU is an unelected dictatorship and the UK Parliament should have the power to do whatever it votes for without any checks. Parliament is supreme.

                        5. The UK Parliament is made up of unrepresentitive MPs and they should on no account be allowed a free vote on any deal. Parliament is not supreme.

                        6. All Eu citizens coming to the UK are immigrants but UK citizens in the EU are 'Ex-Pats'. A UK citizen who moves to a foreign country is never an 'immigrant'.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                          That's right; anyone who disagrees with you is a socialist.
                          How would you label someone who is using the name of a British socialist= Morel ?

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                            The German people don't actually benefit from that either.
                            Ah they do.
                            "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                            validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                            "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by ljadw View Post

                              How would you label someone who is using the name of a British socialist= Morel ?
                              I try to avoid labeling people.
                              I'm a fan of Morel because of the work he did exposing Leopold II in the Congo.
                              I don't particularly share his economic views.
                              "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                              validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                              "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by m kenny View Post
                                The UKIP view of the EU still resonates with the Little Englanders. The core of their beliefs are:

                                1. The EU is wholly financed by UK contributions and without any money from the UK they EU will collapse.

                                2. Everyone in The EU is planning to move to the UK so as to live off the generous UK benefits.

                                3. The EU is undemocratic because it refuses to always defer to the UK when a dispute arises.

                                4. The EU is an unelected dictatorship and the UK Parliament should have the power to do whatever it votes for without any checks. Parliament is supreme.

                                5. The UK Parliament is made up of unrepresentitive MPs and they should on no account be allowed a free vote on any deal. Parliament is not supreme.

                                6. All Eu citizens coming to the UK are immigrants but UK citizens in the EU are 'Ex-Pats'. A UK citizen who moves to a foreign country is never an 'immigrant'.
                                Ha! Well put.
                                The strange thing about benefits is that the UK's aren't particular generous. Unemployment benefits here are nearly twice as high.
                                "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                                validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                                "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                                Comment

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