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  • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
    How would any of the the British ideas on the border undermine the 'the basic structures of the EU'?
    You can start by looking at that old stair slide from Barnier - and then moving on to reading the WTO's MFN clause.
    You think the EU Commission is negotiating with the idea of good neighbourliness and prosperity in mind?
    Actually, yes. The EU made it clear what could be achievable by the UK at the very start of the negotiations and then even stated which of the UK's own 'red lines' rendered them impossible. That was the EU marking the limits it could go - for some unfathomable reason the UK seems to have taken those as starting point for haggling.




    Originally posted by Gooner View Post
    A good reason why the trade negotiations between the UK and EU should already have begun!
    Those talks can't really start until we know of the status of the future relationship between the EU and the UK. That is whole reason why the withdrawal agreement has to come before any kind of trade talks.
    But even so forms will still have to be filled in, tariffs (if the EU decides to go that route) will still have to be paid, and standards still have to be kept. They just won't be happening at the border.
    If there is no withdrawal agreement there will be no trade agreement and hence there will be tariffs. It is that simple. As to where it would happen, that remains to be seen. Border is still the likeliest spot since the UK didn't like the idea of N.I. following the EU rules - which would have made it possible to have checks at ports.
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
      It already was, see UK Position Paper.
      Yes, the Backstop is an undertaking that those elements of the position paper are honoured.



      Originally posted by Gooner View Post
      That is bollocks. See above.
      I'm just pointing out how some people feel.

      Originally posted by Gooner View Post
      Who willingly signs an agreement only one party can amend? A vassal perhaps. The unlimited backstop has to go if the EU wants a deal.
      Why do you think the EU could amend the Backstop agreement?



      Originally posted by Gooner View Post
      Wales voted for Brexit too.
      Fair point.

      "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
      validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
      "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

        The DUP aren't opposing the GFA (anymore) they are opposing Northern Ireland being treated differently to the rest of the United Kingdom.
        Yes, that's the point I was making.



        Originally posted by Gooner View Post
        A good reason why the trade negotiations between the UK and EU should already have begun!
        But even so forms will still have to be filled in, tariffs (if the EU decides to go that route) will still have to be paid, and standards still have to be kept. They just won't be happening at the border.
        If the UK wants to trade using WTO Rules then it will have to have the same borders for all countries so no border with Ireland means none with anyone else from a trade and customs perspective. I don't think that's what they are after.

        "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
        validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
        "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

          I believe in free trade. Not that fussed about tariffs.
          So you are okay with sugar from South Africa, Lamb from New Zealand and beef from Brazil all entering the UK market without any tarifs? Same with cars from India and Korea etc.
          You couldn't restrict produce on the grounds of quality from some countries and not apply the same standards to others so it's free trade with everyone or noone. Them's the WTO rules.
          Of course that will change with negotiated trade deals but that will take decades to sort out. Nobody can wait that long.
          "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
          validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
          "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

          Comment


          • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

            So you are okay with sugar from South Africa, Lamb from New Zealand and beef from Brazil all entering the UK market without any tarifs? Same with cars from India and Korea etc.
            You couldn't restrict produce on the grounds of quality from some countries and not apply the same standards to others so it's free trade with everyone or noone. Them's the WTO rules.
            Of course that will change with negotiated trade deals but that will take decades to sort out. Nobody can wait that long.
            And?

            I am not some socialist pretectionist. If a foreign country can make a product of equivalent quality and cheaper than one made in the U.K. then I will buy it. That's how free trade works. By enabling me to have the same goods for less money it makes me richer and enables me to spend money on other things.

            I suggest you read an economics text book, in particular the chapters that's deal with international trade. I have.
            "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Surrey View Post
              And?

              I am not some socialist pretectionist. If a foreign country can make a product of equivalent quality and cheaper than one made in the U.K. then I will buy it. That's how free trade works. By enabling me to have the same goods for less money it makes me richer and enables me to spend money on other things.

              I suggest you read an economics text book, in particular the chapters that's deal with international trade. I have.
              Then you should have read the versions for advanced students too since they make it quite clear why the result described is only a short term if it undermines the production of the UK. And would in long term be detrimental to the economy of the UK. Cheap imports would enable you to buy more, sure - but the other side of the coin is that less domestic production means lay-offs, unemployment, and similar which will result in increasing public spending, which results in increasing taxes (or alternatively in increasing public debt) which in turn will result in reduction of your purchasing power. Additionally the UK companies could produce things more cheaply - mainly by means of paying less. Which again will result in decreasing purchasing power (and quite a few other things). Overall result would regardless be rapidly increasing income inequality.
              It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                And?

                I am not some socialist pretectionist. If a foreign country can make a product of equivalent quality and cheaper than one made in the U.K. then I will buy it. That's how free trade works. By enabling me to have the same goods for less money it makes me richer and enables me to spend money on other things.

                I suggest you read an economics text book, in particular the chapters that's deal with international trade. I have.
                I'm all in favour of free trade. I'd get rid of trade barriers and the massive subsidies we pay our farmers. Trade barriers and agricultural subsidies are a major cause of poverty in the developing world. I'd do it over decades though, not days. That's because I've read more than one book on economics.
                "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                Comment


                • So, the UK negotiated a Backstop with the EU, with the UK determining the substance and detail of that Backstop... but now they've changed their mind.

                  Does the UK think they are a cute girl and the EU is a horney boy, willing to put up with any and all demands, changes of mind, emotional outbursts, irrational behaviour because they've had a fight with their family, just so she will put out?
                  This is a pull out agreement; the fun is already over. The way things are going they won't even get a hug.
                  "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                  validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                  "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                    If the UK wants to trade using WTO Rules then it will have to have the same borders for all countries so no border with Ireland means none with anyone else from a trade and customs perspective. I don't think that's what they are after.
                    I don't think the UK wants to trade with the EU under WTO rules, but the EU Commissions inflexibility is sort of making this inevitable.
                    The UK proposition for the Ireland border/non-border will, taking into account necessary adjustments and technological implementation, satisfy the WTO. Indeed, probably delight the WTO.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                      You can start by looking at that old stair slide from Barnier - and then moving on to reading the WTO's MFN clause.
                      Uh, that's evading the question.

                      Actually, yes. The EU made it clear what could be achievable by the UK at the very start of the negotiations and then even stated which of the UK's own 'red lines' rendered them impossible. That was the EU marking the limits it could go - for some unfathomable reason the UK seems to have taken those as starting point for haggling.
                      Those talks can't really start until we know of the status of the future relationship between the EU and the UK. That is whole reason why the withdrawal agreement has to come before any kind of trade talks.
                      The future relationship between the UK and the EU is probably going to be at least 80% defined by the trade relationship between them. It is absurd to think the relationship can be decided before the trade links are established.

                      " The UKs ambition is to work towards a comprehensive future agreement with the EU,
                      which includes securing the freest and most frictionless trade possible in goods and
                      services, to the benefit of all. The UK enters these discussions with this in mind, and is
                      seeking to avoid any unnecessary disruption during the move to the future partnership."

                      But your EU negotiators have fcked that up by dismissing British ideas and seeing their position as that of a potentate - that is not the spirit of good neighbourliness.

                      Border is still the likeliest spot since the UK didn't like the idea of N.I. following the EU rules - which would have made it possible to have checks at ports.
                      No, border checks are not going to happen. At least into the UK. Probably Ireland can be bullied into breaking the GFA though.
                      Perhaps the Irish border can be the first deployment for the new Euro Army. 0 Links


                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                        Uh, that's evading the question.
                        No, it wasn't. The point was the reasons why somethings couldn't happen, and can't happen, were explained to the British already immediately after the Brexit vote.
                        The future relationship between the UK and the EU is probably going to be at least 80% defined by the trade relationship between them. It is absurd to think the relationship can be decided before the trade links are established.

                        " The UKs ambition is to work towards a comprehensive future agreement with the EU,
                        which includes securing the freest and most frictionless trade possible in goods and
                        services, to the benefit of all. The UK enters these discussions with this in mind, and is
                        seeking to avoid any unnecessary disruption during the move to the future partnership."

                        But your EU negotiators have fcked that up by dismissing British ideas and seeing their position as that of a potentate - that is not the spirit of good neighbourliness.
                        The relationship matters because it can have direct influence on how the trade is handled in the first place. Which means that trade can not be agreed until the status (SM, CU, other?) is agreed upon. The EU has largely the same goals but the EU can not compromise on the SM or the CU. It is worth noting that the EU is not dismissing the British ideas but since the British ideas are not fully concrete or actually exist anywhere the EU requires that the status of the Irish border is guaranteed until such time that the British solutions prove to be workable and functional. That is what the backstop is all about. The EU is not happy with the backstop - many think that it gives far too much to the British - but it is a necessary solution until a permanent one can be created if it is not possible to deliver one before the transition period ends.
                        No, border checks are not going to happen. At least into the UK. Probably Ireland can be bullied into breaking the GFA though.
                        Border checks a direct consequence of a Brexit if there is no agreement (incl. the backstop) for future relations that would remove the need for them. Neither the EU or the ROI wants those checks, but they are not something that can be swept under the carpet either, if there is no sufficient agreement (or backstop) then the checks will be there.

                        Good thing is that Ireland will be able to use the landbridge to Europe without tariffs regardless - thanks to TIR and CTC agreements.
                        It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                          I don't think the UK wants to trade with the EU under WTO rules, but the EU Commissions inflexibility is sort of making this inevitable.
                          The UK proposition for the Ireland border/non-border will, taking into account necessary adjustments and technological implementation, satisfy the WTO. Indeed, probably delight the WTO.
                          The Uk has already made an agreement with the EU. The UK is now seeking to unilaterally change it.
                          You have no idea whether the vague,fanciful, aspirational "sure we'll think of something" technological "solution" will satisfy the WTO as it doesn't rule on these matters but rather waits for members to take each other to court in order for precedent to be established. Just remember that under WTO rules everyone has to be treated the same.

                          "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                          validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                          "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                            The relationship matters because it can have direct influence on how the trade is handled in the first place. Which means that trade can not be agreed until the status (SM, CU, other?) is agreed upon. The EU has largely the same goals but the EU can not compromise on the SM or the CU. It is worth noting that the EU is not dismissing the British ideas but since the British ideas are not fully concrete or actually exist anywhere the EU requires that the status of the Irish border is guaranteed until such time that the British solutions prove to be workable and functional. That is what the backstop is all about. The EU is not happy with the backstop - many think that it gives far too much to the British - but it is a necessary solution until a permanent one can be created if it is not possible to deliver one before the transition period ends.
                            Excellent post. I suggest that the Brexiteers read it a few times before posting further as it is the factual position as things stand and no amount of bombast and bluster will change reality.
                            "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                            validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                            "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                              The Uk has already made an agreement with the EU.
                              Which agreement. No approval by Parliament, no agreement.


                              The UK is now seeking to unilaterally change it.
                              You have no idea whether the vague,fanciful, aspirational "sure we'll think of something" technological "solution" will satisfy the WTO as it doesn't rule on these matters but rather waits for members to take each other to court in order for precedent to be established. Just remember that under WTO rules everyone has to be treated the same.
                              These technological solutions already exist:
                              "There have been significant developments around the world in creating
                              bring together international standards and best practices and new technologies to create lowfriction
                              borders that support that fast and secure movement of persons and goods.
                              Standards and best practices such as domestic and cross-border coordinated border
                              management as well as trusted trader and trusted traveller programs can significantly reduce
                              compliance requirements and make borders almost friction free. Customs and other border
                              control practices that keep the border open, such as release before clearance, deferred duty
                              payments and clearance away from the border, also help keep the border free of traffic and
                              speed up or even remove the need for processing.
                              Technologies such as automatic number plate recognition, enhanced driver s licenses,
                              barcode scanning and the use of smartphone apps can also have a significant impact by
                              reducing paperwork and allowing pre- or on-arrival release, which can reduce or even
                              eliminate the need to stop or undergo checks.
                              Many of these measures have been introduced at borders across the world. At both the
                              Norway-Sweden border and the Canada-US border, low friction borders have been created
                              through a focus on sharing of both data and facilities, the creation of electronic environments
                              for trade and travel and the use of modern technologies. Both Australia and New Zealand
                              have also focused on utilising technology, in particular bio-metrics, to speed-up the
                              movement of citizens between their respective countries.
                              In developing a solution for the Irish border, there is an opportunity to develop a friction free
                              border building on international standards and best practices, technology and insights from
                              other jurisdictions."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                                No, it wasn't. The point was the reasons why somethings couldn't happen, and can't happen, were explained to the British already immediately after the Brexit vote.
                                Or in other words you have no idea why "the British ideas on the border undermine the 'the basic structures of the EU'?


                                The relationship matters because it can have direct influence on how the trade is handled in the first place. Which means that trade can not be agreed until the status (SM, CU, other?) is agreed upon. The EU has largely the same goals but the EU can not compromise on the SM or the CU. It is worth noting that the EU is not dismissing the British ideas but since the British ideas are not fully concrete or actually exist anywhere the EU requires that the status of the Irish border is guaranteed until such time that the British solutions prove to be workable and functional. That is what the backstop is all about. The EU is not happy with the backstop - many think that it gives far too much to the British - but it is a necessary solution until a permanent one can be created if it is not possible to deliver one before the transition period ends.
                                Not to put too fine a point on it - bollocks.

                                From the Future customs paper of August 2017

                                "22.
                                As we leave the EU we will also leave the EU Customs Union. To achieve our objectives on trading independently with both the EU and the rest of the world, we will need to establish a new customs arrangement with the EU outside of the EU Customs Union.
                                23.
                                In assessing the options for the UKs future outside the EU Customs Union, the Government will be guided by what delivers the greatest economic advantage to the UK, and by three strategic objectives:

                                ensuring UK-EU trade is as frictionless as possible;

                                avoiding a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland; and

                                establishing an independent international trade policy."


                                The EU Commission is negotiating in bad faith and contrary to its own treaties!

                                There are plenty of British position on the EU withdrawal, you should educate yourself rather than parroting the party line.

                                https://www.gov.uk/government/collec...ns-with-the-eu


                                Good thing is that Ireland will be able to use the landbridge to Europe without tariffs regardless - thanks to TIR and CTC agreements.

                                They won't be able to shortcut the queues!

                                Comment

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