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  • Ooops, Barnier has rather blundered!

    "admitting that in the event of no deal “we will have to find an operational way of carrying out checks and controls without putting back in place a border”, going on to say that “my team have worked hard to study how controls can be made paperless or decentralised, which will be useful in all circumstances.”

    Guido adds "Thus blowing apart the entire fiction that the backstop is necessary to avoid a hard border…"

    https://order-order.com/2019/01/24/e...tarts-unravel/

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    • Do remember that the Backstop was a UK offering, not an EU demand.
      Mrs. May, in her naivety, thought that the UK should honour the commitments it in an international agreement. The old guard of the Tory Party have let her know that's not how they do business.
      Do the Little Englanders think that the UK should unilaterally break the Good Friday Agreement?
      "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
      validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
      "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

      Comment


      • I think we can understand how Barnier calling a spade a spade comes over as somehow shocking in the UK, where reality is still in short supply as far as its Brexit process is concerned.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
          Do remember that the Backstop was a UK offering, not an EU demand.
          Mrs. May, in her naivety, thought that the UK should honour the commitments it in an international agreement. The old guard of the Tory Party have let her know that's not how they do business.
          Do the Little Englanders think that the UK should unilaterally break the Good Friday Agreement?

          Ah, wise-up would ye. The UK ain't your enemy and the EU Commission ain't your friend.

          The only people insisting on a hard border in Ireland is the EU. British recommendations of a technological solution to the border issues being dismissed by them as a fantasy - probably because it would require friendly and cooperative states, something the EU clearly has no interest in being.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gooner View Post


            Ah, wise-up would ye. The UK ain't your enemy and the EU Commission ain't your friend.

            The only people insisting on a hard border in Ireland is the EU. British recommendations of a technological solution to the border issues being dismissed by them as a fantasy - probably because it would require friendly and cooperative states, something the EU clearly has no interest in being.
            I don't think the UK is my enemy. I think that the current crop of Tory Brexiteers are wilfully ignorant about the history of their own country or, more specifically, a region of their own country.

            I do think that the UK signed a binding international agreement in order to stop a low-level civil war which had gone on for 30 years in a part of their country and that was a historic and laudable act.
            I do think that the UK should honour the detail and the spirit of that agreement.

            I do think that talking about the "Northern Ireland" Backstop is a tacit acknowledgement by the Little-Englanders that Northern Ireland is not as much part of the "precious union" as England, otherwise the conversation would be about the UK Backstop as this is about the border between the UK and the EU, not the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. If Belfast was as British as Burnley then the only conversation would be about the entire UK, not a part of it.
            "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
            validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
            "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

            Comment


            • The whole 'backstop' issue has only come about because the UK was wrong-footed by the EUs negotiating position. They, craftily, put the cart before the horse and demanded a 'resolution' to the border issue before discussing trade issues .

              Then when the UK produced a plan for a "frictionless and seamless a border as possible" the EU dismissed it as 'magical thinking'.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                The whole 'backstop' issue has only come about because the UK was wrong-footed by the EUs negotiating position. They, craftily, put the cart before the horse and demanded a 'resolution' to the border issue before discussing trade issues .

                Then when the UK produced a plan for a "frictionless and seamless a border as possible" the EU dismissed it as 'magical thinking'.
                The UK doesn't have a plan for a frictionless and seamless a border as possible. It has a vague aspiration in that direction.

                Their plan is like someone claiming to have invented the microwave oven because they proposed that someone should make an oven which cooked things really quickly.

                The UK being "wrong-footed" doesn't make the backstop any less of a UK proposal.
                If the UK is serious about it being an equal union then it is not a Northern Irish backstop, it is a UK Backstop.
                Last edited by E.D. Morel; 25 Jan 19, 07:33.
                "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                Comment


                • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                  The UK doesn't have a plan for a frictionless and seamless a border as possible. It has a vague aspiration in that direction.

                  Their plan is like someone claiming to have invented the microwave oven because they proposed that someone should make an oven which cooked things really quickly.
                  You can download the Government position paper (from August 2017) here https://www.gov.uk/government/public...position-paper

                  Paragraphs 46 onwards go into some detail.
                  All intelligent, sensible stuff.
                  Almost immediately dismissed by the EU for who knows what reason.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                    You can download the Government position paper (from August 2017) here https://www.gov.uk/government/public...position-paper

                    Paragraphs 46 onwards go into some detail.
                    All intelligent, sensible stuff.
                    Almost immediately dismissed by the EU for who knows what reason.
                    Thanks for the link.
                    From my initial reading there are lots of aspirations and considerable detail but no substance as to how they can be overcome in the context of the 4 Freedoms, as set out in the Treaty of Rome.

                    The papers do emphasise the importance of the UK honouring its commitments under the Good Friday Agreement which is welcome although the rhetoric from Brexiteer Little-englanders like Boris and JRM is a long way from that position. In my opinion that's because Boris doesn't care and JRM doesn't understand (and wouldn't care even if he did).
                    "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                    validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                    "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                      Thanks for the link.
                      From my initial reading there are lots of aspirations and considerable detail but no substance as to how they can be overcome in the context of the 4 Freedoms, as set out in the Treaty of Rome.
                      Well Ireland and the UK have had common travel area since 1923.
                      Mentioning the 4 freedoms of the Treaty of Rome here is popping smoke.

                      The British Position Paper on the border was a decent, workable and honourable one, the outstanding problem - other than the EU being unwilling to work with it - being that UK can't know the scope and extent of the solutions needed until there is a trade agreement!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                        I don't think the UK is my enemy. I think that the current crop of Tory Brexiteers are wilfully ignorant about the history of their own country or, more specifically, a region of their own country.

                        I do think that the UK signed a binding international agreement in order to stop a low-level civil war which had gone on for 30 years in a part of their country and that was a historic and laudable act.
                        I do think that the UK should honour the detail and the spirit of that agreement.

                        I do think that talking about the "Northern Ireland" Backstop is a tacit acknowledgement by the Little-Englanders that Northern Ireland is not as much part of the "precious union" as England, otherwise the conversation would be about the UK Backstop as this is about the border between the UK and the EU, not the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. If Belfast was as British as Burnley then the only conversation would be about the entire UK, not a part of it.
                        In what way is the UK not honouring the GFA? The agreement said nothing about the EU. If anything it will be Ireland in breech you choose to build a wall.
                        "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                        Comment


                        • Common travel area is pretty much just a glorified visa free agreement between the ROI and the UK. It doesn't help with trade all that much - nor does it actually matter with the four freedoms either (traveling ain't in it, what those four freedom refer to with freedom of movement is quite a bit different). It is even much more narrow in scope than for example the Nordic Passport Union.
                          Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                          In what way is the UK not honouring the GFA? The agreement said nothing about the EU. If anything it will be Ireland in breech you choose to build a wall.
                          Yet it is explicitly noted in the GFA that the Irish and the British governments wish "to develop still further the unique relationship between their peoples and the close co-operation between their countries as friendly neighbours and as partners in the European Union".

                          What you are forgetting with the argument of 'no wall' is that i doubt very much that any one wants there to be a physical wall - however it is a direct consequence of the UK's decision to leave the EU that there will be a requirement to have the border checks and especially custom checks (not the least due to WTO's MFN clause). The decision to which lead to that requirement (i.e. to quit both the SM and the CU without system equivalent to the backstop in place) was British so that is also who will be seen as the side which caused there to be a need for the checks - and not honouring the GFA, even though AFAIK the GFA does not explicitly state it requires open borders several things in its assume that it is there and can't really function without it.
                          It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                            Well Ireland and the UK have had common travel area since 1923.
                            Mentioning the 4 freedoms of the Treaty of Rome here is popping smoke.
                            Only if Eire is not a member of the EU.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
                              Only if Eire is not a member of the EU.
                              Then they should consider joining with the other half-dozen countries that are talking about leaving the EU..

                              It is now a verified fact that the EU bureaucrats are too inflexible to adapt to changing circumstances. Like it or not, your little Empire is unsustainable.
                              "Why is the Rum gone?"

                              -Captain Jack

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                                Then they should consider joining with the other half-dozen countries that are talking about leaving the EU..
                                And which would those countries be? FYI both French and Italian (just as examples) populists learned from the mess of Brexit and dropped their pretenses of claiming to be leaving the EU and now only state their intent is to reform it, but staying in it regardless.
                                It is now a verified fact that the EU bureaucrats are too inflexible to adapt to changing circumstances. Like it or not, your little Empire is unsustainable.
                                And what exactly are you referring to this? That the EU didn't agree to the UK demands which would have destroyed the whole of the EU in a long run? Or what?
                                It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

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