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  • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
    And now they tell me there will be new vote early next week, on the same proposal or a slightly revised version…?

    Good luck with that


    As long as everything keeps getting rejected we are fine. The ideal exit from Britain’s point of view is a no deal one. Saves us money and allows us to trade in WTO.
    The conflict is between those MPs whose first loyalty is to the EU and the people.
    "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Surrey View Post
      As long as everything keeps getting rejected we are fine. The ideal exit from Britain’s point of view is a no deal one.
      But even for a "no deal exit" there appears to be no majority to be found in your parliament..

      https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ill-be-stopped

      The chancellor said the EU would not consider extending article 50 “unless or until we have a clear plan to go forward” and the “large majority” in the Commons were opposed to no deal “in any circumstances”.
      Hammond replied that he was afraid the government’s position was not going to be the determining factor in the outcome of the vote on the bill.

      He went on during the call to say that removing options had consequences, adding: “The government is not in control of this.
      What exactly does a chancellor do in the British system ?

      Last edited by Snowygerry; 18 Jan 19, 05:20.
      High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

        What exactly does a chancellor do in the British system ?
        Generally it has been to try and ruin the economy.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post






          What exactly does a chancellor do in the British system ?
          There is more than one Chancellor in the British system. Until about ten years ago the Lord Chancellor was the head of the British Judiciary and the Speaker of the House of Lords but since the creation of the Supreme Court the responsibilities have been divided and today is the senior person responsible for constitutional matters W.S Gilbert himself a barrister as well as a comic opera librettist had an interesting take in the Chancellor's song

          The Law is the true embodiment
          Of everything that's excellent.
          It has no kind of fault or flaw,
          And I, my Lords, embody the Law.
          The constitutional guardian I
          Of pretty young Wards in Chancery,
          All very agreeable girls — and none
          Are over the age of twenty-one.
          A pleasant occupation for
          A rather susceptible Chancellor!

          But though the compliment implied
          Inflates me with legitimate pride,
          It nevertheless can't be denied
          That it has its inconvenient side.
          For I'm not so old, and not so plain,
          And I'm quite prepared to marry again,
          But there'd be the deuce to pay in the Lords
          If I fell in love with one of my Wards!
          Which rather tries my temper, for
          I'm such a susceptible Chancellor!

          And every one who'd marry a Ward
          Must come to me for my accord,
          And in my court I sit all day,
          Giving agreeable girls away,
          With one for him — and one for he —
          And one for you — and one for ye —
          And one for thou — and one for thee —
          But never, oh, never a one for me!
          Which is exasperating for
          A highly susceptible Chancellor!

          Not very PC these days

          The Chancellor of the Exchequer is the minister responsible for the Treasury and national economic policy. The person who decides on taxes and tax rates for example as well as how much money each government department gets allocated.
          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

            But even for a "no deal exit" there appears to be no majority to be found in your parliament..

            https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ill-be-stopped





            What exactly does a chancellor do in the British system ?
            On its own the fact that a majority do no support a wto exit does not matter. Under the current law we leave the EU on the 29th with no deal. Thus were the Government determined to do so, as long as they did not lose a confidence vote they could ensure no deal.

            A ‘deal’ needs a majority. No deal does not.

            Likewise a majority would be needed to extend article 50 or to call a referendum or to cancel Brexit altogether. The government supported by the DUP and possibly a two of theee Labour MPs like Hoey and Field should have sufficient numbers to block anything.

            Only 8 Tory MPs are likely to vote against the government in any of these situations, if it ever ever got to the vote. Under Parliamentary procedure up till now it is the government that usually initiates bills. Thus if it doesn’t bring anything forward nothing happens. The wildcard is the Speaker. Up till now Speakers have generally been neutral, content to enforce Parliamentary rules and established procedures. The current one is anything but neutral. He has an affinity to the Labour Party and the EU and will this seek to manipulate the rules accordingly.

            "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Surrey View Post
              On its own the fact that a majority do no support a wto exit does not matter.
              It does matter in a democracy.


              Under the current law we leave the EU on the 29th with no deal.
              Under the current law UK can leave EU on 29th at Parliament will.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Metryll View Post

                It does matter in a democracy.




                Under the current law UK can leave EU on 29th at Parliament will.
                Both parties in the last election had leaving the EU in their manifestos. The referendum decided to leave. The people voted to leave.

                Parliment has already passed a law saying that we leave at the end of March. That is democracy.

                the current attempts by EU stooges to block leaving are attempts to subvert the will of the people. The conflict is between those who believe in democracy, freedom, self determination and independence versus those who want Britain to be ruled by corrupt foreign overlords in the EU.
                "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                Comment


                • So what are you going to do to these "EU stooges" hankering for "corrupt foreign overlords" once you have successfully Brexited? Hyperbole much?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                    Both parties in the last election had leaving the EU in their manifestos.
                    There are more than two parties in UK.

                    The referendum decided to leave.
                    And was not binding by law.

                    The people voted to leave.
                    But not on how to leave which is the matter now.

                    Parliment has already passed a law saying that we leave at the end of March. That is democracy.
                    And Parliament can pass at will and at any time a law abolsihing the previous one. This is also democracy.

                    the current attempts by EU stooges to block leaving are attempts to subvert the will of the people. The conflict is between those who believe in democracy, freedom, self determination and independence versus those who want Britain to be ruled by corrupt foreign overlords in the EU.
                    EU don't care anymore about UK leaving, only how it will leave.

                    Comment


                    • Whatever way it happens it is the process through which the UK transits from full EU member to third nation status. As a third nation the UK will then have to engage the EU in all kinds of processes of negotiation over just about everything, and these will be continuous for the future. It's like with the Swiss, except they have been doing it continuously. Unfortunately, if the UK leaves in an unregulated process, one of the firsts things that will happen is that the EU will make sure that this does not create an unregulated back-door for international exports into the EU Common Market, through a UK trading on nothing but the WTO framework. The EU has all along been very clear and consistent that protecting the Common Market is one its overriding interests. Which in all likelihood means that as and when the UK decides to approach the EU to start to sort things out after a no-deal Brexit, the EU will table one thing only for the UK to resolve before talks can progress further, and that's the UK-Eire land border. It needs sorting, and no-deal or WTO or whatever so far proposed doesn't answer it. The sorting out can be done before or after the UK has left, but it won't somehow go away.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
                        Whatever way it happens it is the process through which the UK transits from full EU member to third nation status. As a third nation the UK will then have to engage the EU in all kinds of processes of negotiation over just about everything, and these will be continuous for the future. It's like with the Swiss, except they have been doing it continuously. Unfortunately, if the UK leaves in an unregulated process, one of the firsts things that will happen is that the EU will make sure that this does not create an unregulated back-door for international exports into the EU Common Market, through a UK trading on nothing but the WTO framework. The EU has all along been very clear and consistent that protecting the Common Market is one its overriding interests. Which in all likelihood means that as and when the UK decides to approach the EU to start to sort things out after a no-deal Brexit, the EU will table one thing only for the UK to resolve before talks can progress further, and that's the UK-Eire land*border. It needs sorting, and no-deal or WTO or whatever so far proposed doesn't answer it. The sorting out can be done before or after the UK has left, but it won't somehow go away.
                        I can’t see the Irish building a wall under any circumstances. And the UK won’t. There is no wall either in the Swiss border with the EU. It is not a problem.
                        "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                        Comment


                        • It always was about the UK forcing the Irish to do what the UK wants, wasn't it? Know their place and such... Fx Poland will not accept a back door of potential unregulated international imports into its domestic market – is one way putting it. The UK-Eire border isn't just a UK-Eire border, it's the border to all 27 remaining member states. In what way is that not going to be a problem? (I get it if you just don't CARE if it is a problem, but that doesn't remove the problem.)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
                            It always was about the UK forcing the Irish to do what the UK wants, wasn't it? Know their place and such... Fx Poland will not accept a back door of potential unregulated international imports into its domestic market – is one way putting it. The UK-Eire border isn't just a UK-Eire border, it's the border to all 27 remaining member states. In what way is that not going to be a problem? (I get it if you just don't CARE if it is a problem, but that doesn't remove the problem.)
                            Again it is up to the Irish to decide whether they build a wall. If they wish to cease trade with the UK that is their concern. The UK is not forcing them to do anything. However if they chose to close the border then their economy will be severely damaged. Thus I doubt they will build a wall and trade will go on between Ireland and the UK whatever happens.

                            Again it is only a problem if the EU and Ireland wish it to be.
                            "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
                              So what are you going to do to these "EU stooges" hankering for "corrupt foreign overlords" once you have successfully Brexited? Hyperbole much?
                              personally, I'm expecting a full scale r e-enactment of the battle of Agincourt....
                              The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Metryll View Post

                                There are more than two parties in UK.

                                But the overwhelming majority of people voted for party's whose manifesto was to leave the EU.

                                And was not binding by law.

                                Was made so by the Withdrawl Act.

                                But not on how to leave which is the matter now.

                                The leaving of the single market and was clearly discussed by both sides in the Referendum. Further the Leave campaign was about 'taking back control' i.e. taking back our sovereignty - control of borders, taxes, laws etc. Any exit that respects the wishes of the people must do that. May's Deal, Norway or anything involving remaining in the single market or custom's union does not.

                                And Parliament can pass at will and at any time a law abolsihing the previous one. This is also democracy.

                                In the UK operates a system of checks and balances with the executive separate from the legislature. The Government proposes laws and Parliament votes on whether to accept them or not. Parliament only has an extremely limited initiating role. It is the Government that has the electoral mandate - that is democracy. Thus under Parliamentary rules if the government does not bring forward any legislation before 29th March then there will be no new laws and a WTO Brexit will happen. If MPs don't like this then they can call a confidence vote in the government. If the Government loses a confidence vote then there will be an election. There was a vote of confidence last week, the government won. So no election. Britain is a democracy so ultimately power rests with the people. The people voted for the government and the government is carrying out their wishes.

                                What the fanatical EU MPs are trying to do is change Parliamentary procedure so that ordinary MPs can control parliamentary business and introduce legislation at will, ending the separation of powers between the executive and the legislature. They seek to have ultimate power rest with MPs rather than with the people. In normal circumstances where the Speaker was neutral and acted as an arbiter of procedure they would stand no chance. However the current Speaker is anything but neutral and supports the EU and the Labour party thus there is a possibility that they may succeed.




                                EU don't care anymore about UK leaving, only how it will leave.

                                I very much doubt that. The EU for its existence depends on member nations not leaving thus anyone who tries to must be seen to suffer and ideally to be forced back under the fold. It is in the interests of the EU (the institution not the people) to inflict harm on the UK until the UK gives up. The problem with the May government up till now is their naivety. They have not realised that they were 'negotiating' with a hostile partner. Hence the atrocious draft withdrawal agreement.
                                B
                                "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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