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  • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

    A little dark money versus sh*tloads of bright money?

    To tell the truth, "The City" boys will go with the bright money -- and the EU rules with which it's attached -- every day of the week and twice on Sunday. They'll always try to skim, of course, but ultimately, they know which side of their bread is buttered. Sorry, but I can't see The City leading the Brexit charge. In fact, I'd think quite the opposite.

    That still doesn't answer my initial question, however: why is Corbyn for "leave"?
    The hard left has always viewed the EU and the EEC before it with disdain. If the Europe is going to be united then its going to be under the Red Flag and they get to pick the national anthem... Something.... Something..... Inevitable victory of the proletariat..... Something. Something. Something.
    They are not really what you might call forward looking people. Seeing as their mindset is pretty much stuck in some kind of 1950's stalinist fantasy.

    The only good news is that they split on a regular basis. A bit like amoeba only not as useful.
    "Sometimes its better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness" T Pratchett

    Comment


    • Originally posted by DARKPLACE View Post
      The hard left has always viewed the EU and the EEC before it with disdain. If the Europe is going to be united then its going to be under the Red Flag and they get to pick the national anthem... Something.... Something..... Inevitable victory of the proletariat..... Something. Something. Something.
      The tune which eludes you is The Internationale.



      Yeah, it bores the sh*t outta me too, but they chant that crap daily nonetheless.

      Originally posted by DARKPLACE View Post
      They are not really what you might call forward looking people. Seeing as their mindset is pretty much stuck in some kind of 1950's stalinist fantasy.

      The only good news is that they split on a regular basis. A bit like amoeba only not as useful.
      So if ED Morel's correct -- a theory to which I do not subscribe -- then that makes derby-wearing bankers and armband wearing socialists bed-fellows.



      I swear this world is getting weirder every day.
      I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

      Comment


      • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

        The tune which eludes you is The Internationale.



        Yeah, it bores the sh*t outta me too, but they chant that crap daily nonetheless.



        So if ED Morel's correct -- a theory to which I do not subscribe -- then that makes derby-wearing bankers and armband wearing socialists bed-fellows.



        I swear this world is getting weirder every day.
        You want to hear weird? She ducked the vote of no confidence by nineteen or twenty votes. The woman is either Teflon coated or the gods are saving some really bad stuff for her.
        "Sometimes its better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness" T Pratchett

        Comment


        • Originally posted by DARKPLACE View Post

          You want to hear weird? She ducked the vote of no confidence by nineteen or twenty votes. The woman is either Teflon coated or the gods are saving some really bad stuff for her.
          Nah. Enough of your MPs know that there isn't another soul on the planet who wants that most thankless of jobs. For all the big talk, nobody in his right mind wants to sail the British ship of state through those uncharted post-Brexit waters. Better it is to leave May at the broken helm, to be the focus of all the complaints, and the discontent.

          Back to Corbyn and his ilk for a second: does Labour's animus towards the EU smell a bit like socialism -- as in National Socialism?
          I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

          Comment


          • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

            Nah. Enough of your MPs know that there isn't another soul on the planet who wants that most thankless of jobs. For all the big talk, nobody in his right mind wants to sail the British ship of state through those uncharted post-Brexit waters. Better it is to leave May at the broken helm, to be the focus of all the complaints, and the discontent.

            Back to Corbyn and his ilk for a second: does Labour's animus towards the EU smell a bit like socialism -- as in National Socialism?
            Slick,

            Labour is overwhelmingly pro-EU, it is just Corbyn and a rump who don't. Within the party they are mostly old-style 70s Socialists who always saw the EU as an elite plot to screw the workers. Among the voter base the anti-EU types tend to be working class who are either worried about cheap foreign labour taking their jobs or are driven by nationalism or both. Ironically the reasons they hate the EU are things Corbyn largely supports - immigration, while he is anything but a nationalist.

            Confusin' innit!

            Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

            Comment


            • Hard to say. This is personal experience and opinion but the far left in the UK has always been dominated by the middle class and the University educated. They don't, and never have understood that the people who actually do the work don't want a workers paradise. They want a fair ceack of the whip. They want to do a fair amount of work and get a fair amount of pay. They want their kids to have better opportunities then they did. Or at least to have the same opportunities that they had. I have never met a British working class communist.

              The last thing that the far left wants is an educated and aspirational working class, for a start half of them think that we still have outside toilets and bath in a tub in front of the fire. They are genuinely and happily and wilfully ignorant of how the world is for the people who they expect to vote for them. They think that they know what we need and want and handle any challenges to their views with screams of nazi, fascist and racist. Since Corbyn got the leadership there has been a steady number of Labour Party constituencies deselecting their mp because they weren't left wing enough. Some have been left over blairites but, quite a few were people who served in councils and commities. Who represented their constituency well who actually had done proper jobs before politics and to a man or woman have been replaced by someone, who can be trusted to sing the party song and hold the right opinion.

              Are they Nazis? Some similarities in how they operate maybe, but Hitler nicked most of his best ideas from the socialists anyway.

              Imo, their just shallow and spiteful. They live in little self supporting bubbles isolated from the rest of us cutting out anyone or anything that they decide is contrary to their views of the world. Which is I think why they can go into the back room as a united party and an hour later schism into three.

              "Sometimes its better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness" T Pratchett

              Comment


              • Originally posted by BF69 View Post

                Slick,

                Labour is overwhelmingly pro-EU, it is just Corbyn and a rump who don't. Within the party they are mostly old-style 70s Socialists who always saw the EU as an elite plot to screw the workers. Among the voter base the anti-EU types tend to be working class who are either worried about cheap foreign labour taking their jobs or are driven by nationalism or both. Ironically the reasons they hate the EU are things Corbyn largely supports - immigration, while he is anything but a nationalist.

                Confusin' innit!
                You know, I've read that thing half-a-dozen times, and I'm still speechless. Assuming that your description is accurate -- and I've no reason to think that it isn't -- how can a reasonable person respond to that? That's an even bigger load of horsesh*t than what comes out of Trump's mouth. I used to worry about some jacka$$ trying to teach us that 2+2=5. You've painted Corbyn's Labour Party as advancing 2+2=10,654,165,741,654.412651651. How do you even digest that, much less respond to it?
                I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                Comment


                • Originally posted by DARKPLACE View Post
                  Hard to say. This is personal experience and opinion but the far left in the UK has always been dominated by the middle class and the University educated. They don't, and never have understood that the people who actually do the work don't want a workers paradise. They want a fair ceack of the whip. They want to do a fair amount of work and get a fair amount of pay. They want their kids to have better opportunities then they did. Or at least to have the same opportunities that they had. I have never met a British working class communist.
                  Due to the different ethnic make-up of the US, and the way that post-WW2 Marxist thought has morphed from an internationalist movement to a nationalist conceit, I've seen a handful of exceptions -- but among white people, I've never known a genuine communist who wasn't university educated, sired by university educated parents. How did the late Austrian economist FA Hayek put it?

                  Socialism has never and nowhere been at first a working class-movement. It is by no means an obvious remedy for an obvious evil which the interests of that class will necessarily demand. It is a construction of theorists, deriving from certain tendencies of abstract thought with which for a long time only the intellectuals were familiar; and it required long efforts by the intellectuals before the working classes could be persuaded to adopt it as their programme - FA Hayek, Studies in Philosophy, Economics, and Politics, 1969

                  Originally posted by DARKPLACE View Post
                  The last thing that the far left wants is an educated and aspirational working class
                  Given the crap that comes out of Columbia Teachers College, I'd say you're right.

                  Originally posted by DARKPLACE View Post
                  for a start half of them think that we still have outside toilets and bath in a tub in front of the fire. They are genuinely and happily and wilfully ignorant of how the world is for the people who they expect to vote for them. They think that they know what we need and want and handle any challenges to their views with screams of nazi, fascist and racist. Since Corbyn got the leadership there has been a steady number of Labour Party constituencies deselecting their mp because they weren't left wing enough. Some have been left over blairites but, quite a few were people who served in councils and commities. Who represented their constituency well who actually had done proper jobs before politics and to a man or woman have been replaced by someone, who can be trusted to sing the party song and hold the right opinion.
                  Ahh, the never ending search for ideological purity. . . . . So where does that leave Britons who aren't ideologically motivated but who aren't Tory? Are they left without any representation at all?

                  Originally posted by DARKPLACE View Post
                  Are they Nazis? Some similarities in how they operate maybe, but Hitler nicked most of his best ideas from the socialists anyway.
                  Ain't it funny how bad ideas keep getting recycled, generation after generation . . . .

                  Originally posted by DARKPLACE View Post
                  Imo, their just shallow and spiteful. They live in little self supporting bubbles isolated from the rest of us cutting out anyone or anything that they decide is contrary to their views of the world. Which is I think why they can go into the back room as a united party and an hour later schism into three.
                  Is there an Afternoon of Long Knives in Labour's future?
                  I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

                    Due to the different ethnic make-up of the US, and the way that post-WW2 Marxist thought has morphed from an internationalist movement to a nationalist conceit, I've seen a handful of exceptions -- but among white people, I've never known a genuine communist who wasn't university educated, sired by university educated parents. How did the late Austrian economist FA Hayek put it?

                    Socialism has never and nowhere been at first a working class-movement. It is by no means an obvious remedy for an obvious evil which the interests of that class will necessarily demand. It is a construction of theorists, deriving from certain tendencies of abstract thought with which for a long time only the intellectuals were familiar; and it required long efforts by the intellectuals before the working classes could be persuaded to adopt it as their programme - FA Hayek, Studies in Philosophy, Economics, and Politics, 1969



                    Given the crap that comes out of Columbia Teachers College, I'd say you're right.



                    Ahh, the never ending search for ideological purity. . . . . So where does that leave Britons who aren't ideologically motivated but who aren't Tory? Are they left without any representation at all?



                    Ain't it funny how bad ideas keep getting recycled, generation after generation . . . .



                    Is there an Afternoon of Long Knives in Labour's future?
                    Once upon a time they voted Liberal. The UK has the same problem that the US has to an extent both the major parties are well more than a little bit dickish. But unless you have have an iron clad garuntee that voting for a third choice won't let one of the others in you pretty much end up voting for who you hate least?

                    Personally, I think that there's a culling coming to both parties. The tories have pretty much painted there bare arses blue and stood in Rackams window. Some of their self appointed "best leaders of a generation" .. Yeah you know the bollocks. Hhave proved to be.... Well... ****wits?Treacherous? And in the case of Gove a triple timing backstabber with a passing resemblance to Himmler
                    They have not just washed their dirty linen in public. They're dragging it onto the parade ground and running it up the flag pole.
                    ​​​​​​
                    I cannot see how the Tory bigwigs and back room boys can't clean house.? Because at the moment they are only marginally more electable then Labour.

                    Labour, Labour eats its young. Corbyn is riding a tiger and his worst enemy isn't a resurgence of the Blairite wing of the party right now it's his own supporters either him or quite possibly Diane Abbot, Google her photo. It'll make you gay. Is going to cock up and break step and his own people will eat him alive.


                    "Sometimes its better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness" T Pratchett

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

                      You know, I've read that thing half-a-dozen times, and I'm still speechless. Assuming that your description is accurate -- and I've no reason to think that it isn't -- how can a reasonable person respond to that? That's an even bigger load of horsesh*t than what comes out of Trump's mouth. I used to worry about some jacka$$ trying to teach us that 2+2=5. You've painted Corbyn's Labour Party as advancing 2+2=10,654,165,741,654.412651651. How do you even digest that, much less respond to it?
                      It isn't quite as insane as you think, though there is insanity to be found.

                      The 'not insane' part is that few people support a big party like Labour, Tories (Dems, GOP) for a single reason. Some, but few. People who like Corbyn's ideas on tax, unions, government services, education etc. might be prepared to overlook his anti-EU attitudes or his pro-migration views. It is less of a stretch than a 'family values' Conservative overlooking the entire life of Trump since he hit puberty.

                      The insane bit is that the membership of the Labour Party, a significant percentage of whom are young, activist university educated & middle class put Corbyn in because they see him as 'principled' and someone who would listen to members. He was also seen as someone who could bring the working class back to labour and regain lost seats in Scotland, which happens to be strongly pro-EU. I don't recall the exact percentage of the membership who are pro-EU, but it is comfortably over 70%. Having picked their 'principled' leader they found out during the Brexit referendum that one of those principles was leaving the EU. Corbyn did campaign to remain, but by all accounts his lack of enthusiasm was painfully apparent. His ongoing refusal to support a second vote is similarly at odds with the membership.

                      Corbyn's ongoing high levels of support among members looks suspiciously like insanity. It is certainly up there with the sort of mental gymnastics whole demographics of Trump voters have been performing.
                      Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

                      Comment


                      • Superb bit of Parliamentary theatre here. Gove looking like a future Tory leader and Corbyn looking the nasty piece of work that he is.



                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by BF69 View Post

                          It isn't quite as insane as you think, though there is insanity to be found.

                          The 'not insane' part is that few people support a big party like Labour, Tories (Dems, GOP) for a single reason. Some, but few. People who like Corbyn's ideas on tax, unions, government services, education etc. might be prepared to overlook his anti-EU attitudes or his pro-migration views. It is less of a stretch than a 'family values' Conservative overlooking the entire life of Trump since he hit puberty.

                          The insane bit is that the membership of the Labour Party, a significant percentage of whom are young, activist university educated & middle class put Corbyn in because they see him as 'principled' and someone who would listen to members. He was also seen as someone who could bring the working class back to labour and regain lost seats in Scotland, which happens to be strongly pro-EU. I don't recall the exact percentage of the membership who are pro-EU, but it is comfortably over 70%. Having picked their 'principled' leader they found out during the Brexit referendum that one of those principles was leaving the EU. Corbyn did campaign to remain, but by all accounts his lack of enthusiasm was painfully apparent. His ongoing refusal to support a second vote is similarly at odds with the membership.

                          Corbyn's ongoing high levels of support among members looks suspiciously like insanity. It is certainly up there with the sort of mental gymnastics whole demographics of Trump voters have been performing.
                          To touch on Trump for just a moment: conservative voters -- who've received nothing but lip service from the "establishment" Republican Party since Barry Goldwater's presidential run -- are so desperate that they're willing to see even a clown like Donald Trump as one of theirs, and he's sleazy enough to don their mantle. It's a Chauncey Gardiner kind of thing, only in reverse.

                          But Corbyn is actually endeavoring to defy the very laws of the physical universe. How can "pro-trade union" and "pro-immigration" be uttered in the same sentence? (A lot of Democrats here do the same thing, by the way.) Labor unions can only be truly effective when the supply of labor is restricted. The last twenty-plus years have amply proven -- definitely in the US, and I strongly suspect in the UK and Australia, as well -- that regardless of government's laws and regulations, the market will always find a way to recruit labor when it needs it, and that if the market's demand is strong enough, the government will talk out of both sides of its mouth simultaneously but in the end do nothing to actually restrict the importation of labor. Immigration ALWAYS increases the supply of labor relative to its demand. That's just a basic, irrefutable fact, like rain being wet. That being the case, how can unions -- and union members -- benefit if the supply of labor is to grow in unrestricted fashion? That's what Corbyn and others of his ilk are proposing: that the growth of labor supply will -- of itself -- create its own demand for labor. Not just any labor, mind you, but high-end and well-paying -- but relatively low-skilled and low value-added labor. Perhaps watching the mills in Birmingham close didn't convince Corbynites that demand for labor -- especially for THAT kind of labor -- is a decidedly FINITE quantity. Like I've said countless times, we have the same kinds of a$$holes here in NYS -- where our industrial base up and disappeared just like it did in the English Midlands, leaving countless ghost towns in its place. Nevertheless, the Irish reaction to the threatened importation of freed Negro slaves in the wake of the Confederacy's defeat should make clear just how finite demand for low-end labor really is. So what on earth on Corbyn and his acolytes playing at, 'cause it sure as sh*t isn't candor, and it ain't basic math.
                          I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

                            Any chance they'll send someone else then ?

                            It's a bit strange they keep voting in May, and at the same time vote down the proposals she comes up with.

                            Obviously she believed her deal was a good one...

                            Can't you send someone to negotiate with a proposal that IS backed up by a majority of the house ?
                            The problem is that while most voters in the UK want to leave the EU, preferably with as few ties as possible, most MPs want to remain. MPs beliefs bear little resemblance to those of their constituents.
                            "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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                            • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                              The problem is that while most voters in the UK want to leave the EU, preferably with as few ties as possible, most MPs want to remain. MPs beliefs bear little resemblance to those of their constituents.
                              For years the fruitcakes were demanding the UK get back its sovereignty and restore the supremacy of Parliament.

                              Turns out they are not all that keen of Parliamentary Sovereignty after all.

                              Roll on the election and the parades down Whitehall lauding The Dear Leader St Jeremy....

                              https://youtu.be/QkW8H6b6-EE?t=53
                              Last edited by m kenny; 17 Jan 19, 15:53.

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                              • And now they tell me there will be new vote early next week, on the same proposal or a slightly revised version…?

                                Good luck with that



                                High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
                                Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

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