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  • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
    Well, get used to it.

    The issue is democracy and Liberalism, and the rule of law. All of which the EU charter enshrines.
    All of which existed in the UK long before Monnet was even out of his mothers womb.

    And was what the Zollverien was Trojan horse to introduce into reactionary autocratic Europe. In a process the closest analogy to the formation of the EU (opposition to Kleinstaaterei etc.). After the UK helped make Europe safe for autocracy by the grace of God after the Nepoleonic wars.
    Eh, what? Napoleon wasn't an autocrat?!

    You guys just refuse to recognize these aspects of European history, in favour of essentializing autocracy and aggressive nationalism as the only things continental Europe can represent to you.
    Napoleon was the epitome of European autocracy and aggressive nationalism until being pipped by a German in the 20th Century..
    You want us to think he was some enlightened forerunner of the European Union?
    And you're surprised the UK voted leave?

    Is the parochially self-rigtheous British view of history annoying? Yes, as annoying as it is wrong-heaed. Should you expect to be gainsaid about parts of it rather more than you have hitherto used to? I think so.
    Yes, I rather suspect you prefer a revisionist interpretation of European history.

    The ur-tragedy of the situation you guys fail to realize is the defeat of the revolution of 1848 by the forces of Reaction. You fail to demonstrate understanding of both the process and the stakes as far as I can tell.
    Is this some fantasy about a peaceful proto-EU evolving in the middle of the 19th Century.

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    • Originally posted by m kenny View Post
      ......................and the first National Health system.
      So 100 million dead in two world wars but on the plus side they had a version of the NHS? I think a little perspective is needed.
      "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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      • Originally posted by Surrey View Post



        Your Zollverein helped enable the creation of an aggressive Prussian led Germany which resulted in two world wars and countless millions of deaths and thus was a BAD THING.
        .
        'Caused' a war because the previous dominant power in Europe (GB) refused to accept her eclipse by Germany and actively conspired to block and/or remove the competition. WW2 was a direct result of WW1. By the early 20th Century it was obvious that GB was being overtaken by the USA and Germany Whilst the UK was grudgingly prepared to play poodle to the USA many still baulk at standing in the German shade.

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        • https://uk.news.yahoo.com/jeremy-cor...104051761.html

          New elections seem more likely than a deal.
          Wisdom is personal

          Comment


          • Originally posted by m kenny View Post

            'Caused' a war because the previous dominant power in Europe (GB) refused to accept her eclipse by Germany and actively conspired to block and/or remove the competition. WW2 was a direct result of WW1. By the early 20th Century it was obvious that GB was being overtaken by the USA and Germany Whilst the UK was grudgingly prepared to play poodle to the USA many still baulk at standing in the German shade.

            Was that when Archie Duke shot an Ostrich?

            I think you need to lay off the sauce for a bit.

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            • Originally posted by m kenny View Post

              'Caused' a war because the previous dominant power in Europe (GB) refused to accept her eclipse by Germany and actively conspired to block and/or remove the competition. WW2 was a direct result of WW1. By the early 20th Century it was obvious that GB was being overtaken by the USA and Germany Whilst the UK was grudgingly prepared to play poodle to the USA many still baulk at standing in the German shade.
              I see you have a 'revisionist' view of history. Best not to view the conspiracy websites too much. Your never know who is monitoring you.
              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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              • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                I see you have a 'revisionist' view of history. Best not to view the conspiracy websites too much. Your never know who is monitoring you.
                Have no fear I do not fall into the trap of thinking everything that runs counter to my beliefs is some great conspiracy and I am not being manipulated by anyone/anything.
                I can stand back outside my bubble and view things as others would see them. I do not believe the world view of me and mine is always the correct view. I (like a nation state) sometimes do bad things. Obviously at the time I did not think they were bad but with the benefit of hindsight I can see my error. Can anyone today defend (for example) the Opium Wars or Mad Mitch killing with impunity in Crater?


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                • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                  I think you need to lay off the sauce for a bit.
                  What do you dispute?
                  The reasons for WW1 or the rise of Germany to be the dominant power in Europe?
                  One is arguable the other simply undeniable.

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                  • Originally posted by Karri View Post
                    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/jeremy-cor...104051761.html

                    New elections seem more likely than a deal.
                    You may not know this but the leader of the opposition in the UK cannot call an election. Under the Fixed Terms Parliament Act there cannot be an election before 5th May 2022 unless there is a specific vote of no confidence in the government or there is a motion supported by two thirds of MPs initiated by the government itself as there was in 2017. Parliamentary Bills can and have been voted down in the past without the government falling.
                    A deal being rejected by Parliament, unless May is even more stupid than I think she is, will result in a no deal exit.

                    It doesn't matter what that Marxist bigot says, the only person who can cause there to be an election is the PM. Corbyn knows this and I suspect probably wants the UK to leave under a no deal as it would make it easier for him to turn the UK into Venezuela should he ever win an election.



                    "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Karri View Post
                      https://uk.news.yahoo.com/jeremy-cor...104051761.html

                      New elections seem more likely than a deal.
                      Corbyn is very anti-EU. He always has been and never made any secret of it. His refusal to back a Yes vote was astonishing considering the overwhelming majority of Labour Party members want to stay in the EU. Corbyn's aim is to get elected and he knows he has to suppress his 'principles' in order to gain power. Thus he is cynically fooling his base by letting them believe he will back staying when in fact he has no intention of staying and will use the vote as an excuse rather than come out and say what he believes.
                      Anyone thinking Corbyn is for staying in the EU is delusional. His party may force him to stay but if he could choose then the UK is out.

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                      • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                        It doesn't matter what that Marxist bigot says, the only person who can cause there to be an election is the PM. Corbyn knows this and I suspect probably wants the UK to leave under a no deal as it would make it easier for him to turn the UK into Venezuela should he ever win an election.
                        I have seem many an election come and go. I can safely say all the claims by Party Blue that Party Red (and the other way around) will/have destroy/ruined the Country are bollocks. All that happens is we lurch from right to left and much time and effort is wasted as each successive Government ditches the plans of the previous one whilst in turn their new plans are ditched when they get voted out. I believe the problem is people who know they are 100% right and the opposition are 100% wrong. Those who delight in telling opponents 'we won so you will do exactly what we want and there is nothing you want that will ever get done' are the real villains here.
                        What happened to consensus politics?

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                        • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                          So 100 million dead in two world wars but on the plus side they had a version of the NHS? I think a little perspective is needed.

                          Whatever you do don't mention the war.


                          For the Brexiteer WW2 was just yesterday and it completely dominates their thinking.


                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6...utu.be&t=1m11s

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                          • At least someone sees Labour in a realistic light....

                            the leader of the Greens in the European parliament, Philippe Lamberts, told the Guardian: “I have zero trust in Labour, I am afraid to say. The Labour position is not to do with principles, but about tactical considerations. It is all about getting the government out of power whatever the cost.

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                            • Originally posted by m kenny View Post

                              What do you dispute?
                              The reasons for WW1 or the rise of Germany to be the dominant power in Europe?
                              One is arguable the other simply undeniable.
                              Both.
                              The first is arguable only by Conspiraloons.
                              The second is weird. The Germany economy by 1913 had only just matched that of the UK with about 50% more people. Its GDP per capita growth had slowed to barely more than the UKs and was being exceeded by other European powers - notably their big neighbour to the East - and the German public debt was three times the level of the UKs and rising - so, no, not a dominant economic power.

                              Dominant military power on the Continent OTOH, yes. That had been the case since 1871 and it bothered Britain not a bit. Until Germany decided, hubristically, that it wanted to become a great naval power as well.
                              The clock was ticking on Germany's continental military superiority however. At most Germany had 5 to 10 years before Russia irrevocably became the greatest military power on the continent. The Germans were aware of this.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by m kenny View Post

                                'Caused' a war because the previous dominant power in Europe (GB) refused to accept her eclipse by Germany and actively conspired to block and/or remove the competition. WW2 was a direct result of WW1. By the early 20th Century it was obvious that GB was being overtaken by the USA and Germany Whilst the UK was grudgingly prepared to play poodle to the USA many still baulk at standing in the German shade.
                                Bloody Hell !

                                There's a wealth of material for debate contained within a single post.:- but we must stay on-topic.
                                "Britain refused to accept her eclipse by Germany" etc etc is just plain untrue. It is true that Britain wished to maintain the status quo but that's a long way from saying that she would have actively sought war to preserve it.
                                I suggest a study of the July Crisis of 1914 to discover what really triggered WW1. (We had a member, Peterhof, who argued at length about that)
                                Whether WW2 was "a direct result of WW 1" is another fertile field for discussion.
                                As for "play poodle ", where did that come from ?
                                Last edited by BELGRAVE; 27 Sep 18, 18:44.
                                "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                                Samuel Johnson.

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