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  • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
    It has moved on since then. Apparently the UK has not.

    You've got that one backwards, like oh so many things about Europe the British manage to get wrong. Beginning with the massive dollops of sheer underestimation of it that the current Tory government is amply and repeatedly displaying. (Nothing at Salzburg should have come as anything like a surprise to PM May, and yet apparently did, including the bizarre bit of seriously ticking off a swathe of EU leaders of government by insulting them taking them for fools, while clearly not realizing that was what she was doing).

    The French during the revolution spotted the incongruousness of the UK allying itself with the absolute monarchies of Europe against them over the turn to republicanism. The terror came later, so is a bit of tacked-on UK ad hoc retroactive historiography, since that lasted only a year, while the UK still fought France before it, and for most of the decade between it and the advent of Napoleon's First Empire. You were called perfidious because, well, you kinda were, politically at least.

    And oh look, now you're doing it again! Except this time it's the illiberal populists who want an end to the kind of free and open liberal democratic society that is set down in the EU charter:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8552361.html

    At some point you tend to end up deserving it you know. And as said, it's one thing to oppose any single European power rising to dominate Europe, at least in principle, and opposing continental Europe as a whole through some mistaken idea of divide et impera, which works rather less well on the EU because it really isn't the same old Europe as the one the UK apparently is referencing. It could be a learning process, except it's unclear if the current tory government is capable of learning. (Too much historical baggage/garbage for it to actually discern the EU through the murk it seems.)

    (And I said in principle, since after the Napoleonic wars the UK kind of did end up endorsing a dominant European power by default; Russia making up the bulk of the balance of the military power of the Holy Alliance putting down liberal revolutions all over Europe for a couple of decades. The British at the time were sufficiently disgusted by the spectacle to quietly withdraw from the Concert of Powers managing the continent as early as 1822. What the UK claims it wants and what the effects can be are rather different things. Like that Brexit is likely to turn out to be as good an object lesson as any from British history.)
    You should have spotted from my posts that I do not have I high opinion of May and would have been more than happy with a just free trade agreement. Chequers was regarded by most on this side of the Channal as unworkable and as being extremely favourable to the EU. It was developed by May and a small group of civil servants in secret without input from the Cabinet or pretty much anyone else. Though there was some input from Merkel and Germany in the development of the plan. The ‘surprise’ was that the EU did not accept something that was meant to appease them.

    In the Revolutionary war it was France that declared war on Britain so Britain was automatically allied with Austria etc. France was the aggressor, Pitt wanted peace. The revolutionaries started their bloody work in 1789 and there were the September massacres in 1792. The nature of the French Revolution was clear before the war started.
    Last edited by Surrey; 26 Sep 18, 06:45.
    "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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    • Originally posted by m kenny View Post
      I am sure the EU can trust the UK to play ball over Custom Fees.........

      https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/...customs-duties
      Oh, so being accused of something by the EU commission (of public safety) is now proof of guilt?

      The old 'divide and rule' gambit came a cropper this time. No 'Hessians' were recruited so the UK has to learn to fight its own battles.
      What because most of Europe was in favour of the (proto-EU) Napoleonic Empire?

      BTW wrong Revolutionary war referencing the Hessians.

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      • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
        The French during the revolution spotted the incongruousness of the UK allying itself with the absolute monarchies of Europe against them over the turn to republicanism. The terror came later, so is a bit of tacked-on UK ad hoc retroactive historiography, since that lasted only a year, while the UK still fought France before it, and for most of the decade between it and the advent of Napoleon's First Empire. You were called perfidious because, well, you kinda were, politically at least.
        Britain was a Constitutional Monarchy with strong democratic elements, so neither a continental style absolute monarchy or the new continental style of absolute republicanism,
        As it was the revolution in France initially had much support in Britain - until the triumph there of Jacobinism, the Terror and absolutism.

        England and then the UK had been at war on and off constantly with France since 1693. What was perfidious about going to war with them again?

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        • Originally posted by Gooner View Post


          BTW wrong Revolutionary war referencing the Hessians.
          Hessians/Hannovarians/Brunswickers Call them what you will.

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          • de_hann1.gif

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            • Originally posted by m kenny View Post

              Hessians/Hannovarians/Brunswickers Call them what you will.
              It was actually the Portuguese and Russians who helped us break the Continental System last time round.
              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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              • The history bit is interesting, not least for howthe UK go to tropes seem to be about war. The EU is the opposite of that history. A reasonable point of historical analogy for what kind of "exempla" from history the EU fulfills is not Napoleon's empire (much less the Nazis and WWII), but the German "Zollverein", the customs union, of the 19th c.

                At the same time as the Holy Alliance (Russia and Austria mostly) was putting down Liberal revolutions around Europe the Germans lands decided to club together and, from 1833, create the world's first full economic union of independent states without the simultaneous creation of a political federation or union. Effectively it was the same kind of revolutionary political Liberalism that the victors of the Napoleonic wars were fighting hard to defeat wherever it reared its head, except by other means, disguised as something supposedly neutral, i.e. trade.

                The UK might THINK it is refighting the Napoleonic wars, opposing "Tyranny in Europe" or whatever, but really what it is doing, is leave the latter day descendant of the "Zollveriein" of the 1830's.

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                • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
                  The history bit is interesting, not least for howthe UK go to tropes seem to be about war. The EU is the opposite of that history. A reasonable point of historical analogy for what kind of "exempla" from history the EU fulfills is not Napoleon's empire (much less the Nazis and WWII), but the German "Zollverein", the customs union, of the 19th c.

                  At the same time as the Holy Alliance (Russia and Austria mostly) was putting down Liberal revolutions around Europe the Germans lands decided to club together and, from 1833, create the world's first full economic union of independent states without the simultaneous creation of a political federation or union. Effectively it was the same kind of revolutionary political Liberalism that the victors of the Napoleonic wars were fighting hard to defeat wherever it reared its head, except by other means, disguised as something supposedly neutral, i.e. trade.

                  The UK might THINK it is refighting the Napoleonic wars, opposing "Tyranny in Europe" or whatever, but really what it is doing, is leave the latter day descendant of the "Zollveriein" of the 1830's.
                  And that led to an aggressive Prussia, wars against Denmark and France, ww1, ww2 and the Nazis. Not helping your argument....
                  "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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                  • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                    And that led to an aggressive Prussia, wars against Denmark and France, ww1, ww2 and the Nazis. Not helping your argument....
                    Except that's not what it meant at all. You essentialize what was an IDEOLOGICAL conflict in terms of NATIONAL conflict. So you're just continuing to demonstrate a British failure to understand European history.

                    But, I guess that was entirely predictable as a display of how the British are struggling to move on as part of that bizarre Brexit process.

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                    • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                      And that led to an aggressive Prussia, wars against Denmark and France, ww1, ww2 and the Nazis. Not helping your argument....
                      "
                      You've got that one backwards, like oh so many things about Europe the British manage to get wrong."



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                      • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
                        Except that's not what it meant at all. You essentialize what was an IDEOLOGICAL conflict in terms of NATIONAL conflict. So you're just continuing to demonstrate a British failure to understand European history.

                        But, I guess that was entirely predictable as a display of how the British are struggling to move on as part of that bizarre Brexit process.

                        The Zollverein customs union led to the political union of Germany under the aggressive, militaristic and autocratic Prussian state.

                        What is there to understand?

                        BTW you need to turn your Anglophobia down a notch or two, really turning into bigotry now.

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                        • I don't think the UK folks understand that a catastrophic failure in the negotiations is not going to be a catastrophe for EU but for them.
                          Wisdom is personal

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                          • Originally posted by Gooner View Post


                            The Zollverein customs union led to the political union of Germany under the aggressive, militaristic and autocratic Prussian state.

                            What is there to understand?

                            BTW you need to turn your Anglophobia down a notch or two, really turning into bigotry now.
                            Well, get used to it.

                            The issue is democracy and Liberalism, and the rule of law. All of which the EU charter enshrines. And was what the Zollverien was Trojan horse to introduce into reactionary autocratic Europe. In a process the closest analogy to the formation of the EU (opposition to Kleinstaaterei etc.). After the UK helped make Europe safe for autocracy by the grace of God after the Nepoleonic wars. You guys just refuse to recognize these aspects of European history, in favour of essentializing autocracy and aggressive nationalism as the only things continental Europe can represent to you.

                            Is the parochially self-rigtheous British view of history annoying? Yes, as annoying as it is wrong-heaed. Should you expect to be gainsaid about parts of it rather more than you have hitherto used to? I think so.

                            The ur-tragedy of the situation you guys fail to realize is the defeat of the revolution of 1848 by the forces of Reaction. You fail to demonstrate understanding of both the process and the stakes as far as I can tell.

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                            • Originally posted by Gooner View Post


                              The Zollverein customs union led to the political union of Germany under the aggressive, militaristic and autocratic Prussian state.

                              ......................and the first National Health system.

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                              • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
                                Well, get used to it.

                                The issue is democracy and Liberalism, and the rule of law. All of which the EU charter enshrines. And was what the Zollverien was Trojan horse to introduce into reactionary autocratic Europe. In a process the closest analogy to the formation of the EU (opposition to Kleinstaaterei etc.). After the UK helped make Europe safe for autocracy by the grace of God after the Nepoleonic wars. You guys just refuse to recognize these aspects of European history, in favour of essentializing autocracy and aggressive nationalism as the only things continental Europe can represent to you.

                                Is the parochially self-rigtheous British view of history annoying? Yes, as annoying as it is wrong-heaed. Should you expect to be gainsaid about parts of it rather more than you have hitherto used to? I think so.

                                The ur-tragedy of the situation you guys fail to realize is the defeat of the revolution of 1848 by the forces of Reaction. You fail to demonstrate understanding of both the process and the stakes as far as I can tell.
                                Britian helped make Europe safe full stop after the Napoleonic wars. Stopping aggressive nationalism and totalitarian rule.
                                Those who support both of these tend to have a problem with that but that is not our concern.

                                Your Zollverein helped enable the creation of an aggressive Prussian led Germany which resulted in two world wars and countless millions of deaths and thus was a BAD THING.
                                It is a shame that Hannover didn’t have a more liberal succession. If Victoria had been Queen of Hannover then we would have been able to prevent all the unpleasantness.
                                "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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