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  • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
    So what does the UK want to do now?
    Unless the EU offers us something we like we walk away.
    "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

      Unless the EU offers us something we like we walk away.
      Who is this "we"?

      But sure, we sort of do know what the UK might want; to cherrypick the Common Market in an ŕ la carte fashion, and that is not something the EU can give the UK without endangering itself.

      I.e. so far what the UK wants is for the rest of the 27 EU members to hurt themselves collectively.

      When the UK drops that, and wants something it can actually get, this will all work rather better.

      Beyond that (cake and unicorns stuff, mostly for Tory benefit) what the UK MIGHT want in the end, is still a riddle, wrapped in an enigma. At best what the UK wants in the end is a process, not some kind of discernible position. Which is part of the problem.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post

        But sure, we sort of do know what the UK might want; to cherrypick the Common Market in an ŕ la carte fashion, and that is not something the EU can give the UK without endangering itself.
        The UK is relatively clear on what it doesn't want (End free movement of people, ECJ oversight, customs union membership) and what it does (deep and special relationship with the EU). It is the practicalities of how this fits with what the EU wants that is difficult.

        The biggest issue at the moment is the Irish border where the EU is demanding an agreement that NI remains indefinitely in the Single Market and Customs Union, while at the same time insisting that the rest of the UK is treated as a third party country. Unless the EU concedes substantial ground on that there will be no deal.

        The Chequers proposal was designed to make trade in goods between the UK and the EU as free as possible for the benefit of both sides. In many ways it was impracticable, but it reflects May's position of remaining as close to the EU as possible while respecting the red lines given above.

        If the EU won't accept this, then the alternative is an extensive free trade agreement (Canada+++), but this has higher economic costs for both sides.

        The biggest fallout from Salzburg will be loss of trust. The tone of the rejection (and Tusk's Instagram) has moved UK opinion - there are people who voted for Remain now saying "get out as soon as possible".

        Comment


        • Well. it might always have been a matter of the UK not quite daring to jump, even after having made the decision to, and so needing the EU to push it in the end.

          At least the French government have com across as determined that what's necessary is to get the UK to finally vacate the premises.

          Btw, as far as the trust issue is concerned, what are the odds May might actually deliver on an agreement, whatever it might be, given the UK political situation?

          Comment


          • The frenzied gutter press have delivered their verdict

            mar2018144_stitchgghhhc.jpg
            Its all there. The White Cliffs of Dover, the reversed V for Victory sign. I am only surprised they did not have her smoking a cigar and a hat added. Its all playing to the myth of plucky Little England defying Hitler/Europe.

            The inside pages are gloating about being able to deny Europeans entry into the UK.

            mar201814 nbb6.jpg

            This garbage plays well with the angry white men.

            Sorry about the stains on the paper. I never buy the rag and picked it up when someone discarded it.

            Comment


            • How did it happened ? How British felt so low ?
              There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post

                Btw, as far as the trust issue is concerned, what are the odds May might actually deliver on an agreement, whatever it might be, given the UK political situation?
                To be honest, at this point I have no idea.

                She bet everything on Chequers, presumably after getting positive feedback from Europe (she briefed Merkel before her own Cabinet).

                She has no room left to compromise further on Northern Ireland or the Chequers deal (moving it closer to full single market membership), without a revolt inside the Conservative Party or DUP, resulting in a leadership election.

                Getting a Canada+++ deal through the House of Commons might be difficult if enough Conservative Remainers revolt, leading to a general election.

                There might be a path through, but it will require a lot of help from the EU side, which seems unlikely after Salzburg.

                Comment


                • May had been forwarned that her latest proposal wouldn't be acceptable; she's trying to keep three parties happy and there's no way in the world that's gonna be achieved. What was that remark about a scorned women one or two pages back in this thread again? How apt that she's acting exactly that way, and now she can leave "with honour", claiming it "wasn't her fault", and it's "them" being "unreasonable".

                  As far as I am concerned : let them have it any which way they like, hard or soft. In five years the dust will have settled.
                  "For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Aber View Post

                    To be honest, at this point I have no idea.
                    She bet everything on Chequers, presumably after getting positive feedback from Europe (she briefed Merkel before her own Cabinet).


                    She has no room left to compromise further on Northern Ireland or the Chequers deal (moving it closer to full single market membership), without a revolt inside the Conservative Party or DUP, resulting in a leadership election.

                    Getting a Canada+++ deal through the House of Commons might be difficult if enough Conservative Remainers revolt, leading to a general election.

                    There might be a path through, but it will require a lot of help from the EU side, which seems unlikely after Salzburg.
                    It may now be possible to get a Canada style deal through Parliament as long as the EU gives up its designs on Northern Ireland. After Salzburg some of the Remain Tory MPs may now back down and a number of Labour MPs, particularly the victims of the latest purge, are likely to vote with the government.
                    "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
                      So what does the UK want to do now?
                      Answers on a postcard.

                      Seriously, your guess is as good as the next man's.

                      Indyref2 - still, "Yes."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Emtos View Post
                        How did it happened ? How British felt so low ?
                        Wrong opinion.

                        Most British people don't have a clue what is going on. Replacing 'Most' with 'All' would not be far from the truth either.
                        How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                        Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

                          Wrong opinion.

                          Most British people don't have a clue what is going on. Replacing 'Most' with 'All' would not be far from the truth either.
                          Still the British mass media and politicians are more hysterical and ridiculous than ever.
                          There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Emtos View Post

                            Still the British mass media and politicians are more hysterical and ridiculous than ever.
                            You don't know the half of it. This is from a recent newspaper article:

                            screenshot.2018-09-23 (12).jpg

                            They are playing on this iconic WW2 cartoon
                            screenshot.2018-09-23 (11)fcvfd.jpg


                            and it is obviously an attempt to portray the current problems as just another attempt by Germany to create a 4th Reich. There really are a lot of people who see it in these terms.

                            Comment


                            • The trick to getting what you want tends to be to work out what you can get, and then ask for it. "You can't always get what you want. But you might get what you need", as it says in the song.

                              That's been a continuous challenge with the UK. It simply doesn't seen the UK govt has grasped what is going on with the other party.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by m kenny View Post
                                The frenzied gutter press have delivered their verdict

                                mar2018144_stitchgghhhc.jpg
                                Its all there. The White Cliffs of Dover, the reversed V for Victory sign. I am only surprised they did not have her smoking a cigar and a hat added. Its all playing to the myth of plucky Little England defying Hitler/Europe.

                                The inside pages are gloating about being able to deny Europeans entry into the UK.

                                mar201814 nbb6.jpg

                                This garbage plays well with the angry white men.

                                Sorry about the stains on the paper. I never buy the rag and picked it up when someone discarded it.
                                As I understand it, all Mrs May is trying to do is cut the best deal she can for Britain given that Brexit is a fact:- an opt-quoted expression of the "Will Of The People". (Vox populi non est vox Dei)
                                "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                                Samuel Johnson.

                                Comment

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