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  • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
    Merkel is a reference to British fantasies about the continent...
    It taps into the fantasy that The UK 'saved' Europe in WW2 and the ungrateful degos repay 'us' by allowing Merkel (code for Germany) to establish a Fourth Reich by the back door.

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    • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
      Fair bit of that would be fine - but not all. That would still require sorting out the mess the different demands place on the ROI-NI border. Or if there is no willingness to sort it out then just inform everyone which agreement they would be breaking (likely GFA).
      The GFA has no references to the border, and so a hard border would not break any agreements directly.

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      • Originally posted by Aber View Post
        The GFA has no references to the border, and so a hard border would not break any agreements directly.
        True, though lack of (hard) border is kind of implied or required for it to function as intended.
        It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

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        • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
          Fair bit of that would be fine - but not all. That would still require sorting out the mess the different demands place on the ROI-NI border. Or if there is no willingness to sort it out then just inform everyone which agreement they would be breaking (likely GFA). Though given how much the UK has different special rules for various Crown dependencies it is difficult to see why they couldn't just turn N.I. into something along those lines and allow it to abide by the Irish (i.e. EU) rules. Which would sort out most of the mess. Also why Merkel? She doesn't really have power in the EU - Barnier and Juncker are the ones which can actually do something.

          No one has been trying to annex N.I. - they can however voluntarily join the ROI in accordance to the GFA.
          The majority population of Ulster would no more join Ireland than Finland would reunite with Russia.

          As you have already acknowledged the GFA does not require an open border and the UK has no plans to put one in place anyway.

          So the Irish border issue has just been a red herring, used by May to ensure that the UK continues to have to abide by EU rules and pay tribute as a vassal state.
          "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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          • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

            The majority population of Ulster would no more join Ireland than Finland would reunite with Russia.

            As you have already acknowledged the GFA does not require an open border and the UK has no plans to put one in place anyway.

            So the Irish border issue has just been a red herring, used by May to ensure that the UK continues to have to abide by EU rules and pay tribute as a vassal state.
            With that line of reasoning the UK will always be a vasall of someone as long as it accept to trade. Full autarky beckons. Juche forvever...

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            • Originally posted by m kenny View Post

              It taps into the fantasy that The UK 'saved' Europe in WW2 and the ungrateful degos repay 'us' by allowing Merkel (code for Germany) to establish a Fourth Reich by the back door.
              Yeah, to spell it out in full.

              The actually embarrassing aspect of the May-Merkel meeting wasn't that May somehow went to have Merkel "sign off" on anything, but that she tried to get Merkel to "make her an offer", only to (predictably) be told by Merkel that's now how it works.

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              • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post

                With that line of reasoning the UK will always be a vasall of someone as long as it accept to trade. Full autarky beckons. Juche forvever...
                May's proposals are to subject the UK to EU rules and continue payments but for the UK not to have a say in setting those rules. Worse than Norway's position and a lot worse than the UK is now. We should either be in or out. Not May's vassal state.

                "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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                • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                  May's proposals are to subject the UK to EU rules and continue payments but for the UK not to have a say in setting those rules. Worse than Norway's position and a lot worse than the UK is now. We should either be in or out. Not May's vassal state.
                  So it's not trading itself that the problem, just trading with the EU? Ok..

                  You're going to have to accept EU standards of goods and services in order to sell them there regardless. The only way out of that is to not trade with the EU.

                  The UK also won't be granted decision making powers over the EU upon leaving.

                  Unless the UK remains in the EU after all, where it does have SERIOUS clout in the decision making processes.

                  The rest of the EU can happily live with both. It's preferred option always was for the UK to stay though. It's the UK that seems terminally confused about what it wants.

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                  • Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                    I find it hard to believe the Protestants in Northern Ireland are really that eager to to have Catholic rule...but who knows?
                    Ireland is a republic and so not a "Catholic" country. Less than 18% of people go to Church, with attendance by younger people in the low single figures. Ther NI Unionists probably don't want to be ruled by heathens (the loss of their ability to suckle on the tit of the English taxpayer is probably the real reason though).
                    The other factor is that there's a good chance that a referendum on reunification would not pass in Ireland; the British made the mess that is Northern Ireland, they can keep it.
                    "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                    validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                    "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

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                    • Originally posted by Aber View Post

                      The GFA has no references to the border, and so a hard border would not break any agreements directly.
                      The British government incorporated the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) into the domestic law of Northern Ireland through the Human Rights Act. When the UK leaves the EU they will no longer be subject to the ECHR but as long as they unhold the GFA they cannot make laws in Northern Ireland which contravene the ECHR. I have yet to hear how that one is to be unravelled.

                      I am strongly of the opinion that there is no way of avoiding a hard border. The real issue is how that will affect the East-West trade which is far more important to us. Less than 1% of our exports go North whereas over 30% of their go South.
                      "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                      validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                      "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                        The British government incorporated the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) into the domestic law of Northern Ireland through the Human Rights Act. When the UK leaves the EU they will no longer be subject to the ECHR but as long as they unhold the GFA they cannot make laws in Northern Ireland which contravene the ECHR. I have yet to hear how that one is to be unravelled.

                        I am strongly of the opinion that there is no way of avoiding a hard border. The real issue is how that will affect the East-West trade which is far more important to us. Less than 1% of our exports go North whereas over 30% of their go South.
                        The Echr is not part of the EU and there are no proposals for the UK to leave the Echr. There are many states that are subject to the Echr that are not in the EU, for example Russia.

                        "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                          The majority population of Ulster would no more join Ireland than Finland would reunite with Russia.
                          A better parallel is East and West Germany in 1990 as the relative gap in income, GDP, etc between NI and Ireland is the same as between East and West Germany at reunification (the North being East Germany for the purposes of this comparison).
                          The UK government, when signing the GFA, accepted that unification would take place after a 50% +1 vote for unity. If that happened we'd want a hell of a lot more than £31 billion to take it off your hands. Peter Robinson (if you don't know who he is you've no business posting about this issue) said in a recent speech that while he didn't think there would be a united Ireland the UK should start preparing for the possibility.

                          The great irony is that if Ulster Unionists want their traditions respected and protected they have a much better chance of that happening in the longer term in a united Ireland. They wouldn't be joining the Republic of Ireland, we'll create a new united country.
                          Last edited by E.D. Morel; 19 Sep 18, 09:30.
                          "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                          validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                          "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

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                          • Question...What is expected, positive, from Britain's exit? Seems that Britain is trying to isolate it's self from the continent. In unity is strength. Something Scotland needs to remember too. IMO it seems both are taking a step backwards
                            "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                            Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                            you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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                            • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                              The Echr is not part of the EU and there are no proposals for the UK to leave the Echr. There are many states that are subject to the Echr that are not in the EU, for example Russia.
                              True, but it is dominated by the EU and has adopted the European flag. It is, in practice though not in theory, an EU institution.
                              "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                              validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                              "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                                Question...What is expected, positive, from Britain's exit? Seems that Britain is trying to isolate it's self from the continent. In unity is strength. Something Scotland needs to remember too. IMO it seems both are taking a step backwards
                                That depends on who is talking. Rich people in the UK seem to be the winners in some of the more likely theories. That is cutting down the EU regulations would probably allow cutting down various protections (and their expenses) hence increasing profits. That route would mean that in the UK rich would get richer and the poor would get poorer as the inequality would increase. In another version slashing down the UK tariffs would allow every one to dump stuff into the UK crashing the UK prizes - while also crashing the UK agriculture and industry. That has some appeal again if you are already financially secure and do not have too many attachments to agriculture and/or manufacturing industry.

                                But for a 'common man' there doesn't appear to be much upsides in Brexit. Apart from blue passports (made in France).
                                It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

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