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  • #16
    Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
    Besides if you just want a free trade agreement with the EU, that's pretty easy.

    The problem is that the UK effectively wants to remain inside the EU common market.
    What's the difference between a free trade agreement and the single market?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
      Now you are again back in your fantasy world. That is the UK share of the already agreed EU projects and budgets - things UK has already committed to. It is not in way related to the trade deals or market access. Not paying that would likely lead to a serious crisis between the UK and the EU not to mention preventing any chance of any sort of UK access (which still would need to negotiated separately).
      "Britain will refuse to pay its £39 billion divorce bill to Brussels if the European Union fails to agree a trade deal, the new Brexit Secretary pledges today.
      Dominic Raab told The Sunday Telegraph that he would make the vast payment formally conditional on the EU “fulfilling its side of the bargain”.
      The promise will be welcomed by leading Brexiteers after the Government said in May that there were no plans for a legally enforceable link between the bill and a future trading relationship."

      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...-divorce-bill/

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
        As for the Irish, what the process highlights is that when fundamental interests for small EU members, viz Eire here, are on the line, then they have every chance of digging their heels in and making the rest of the EU pivot on their behalf. Which is kind of the point of the safety in numbers aspect. It relies on the Irish being able to expect the rest of the EU to back them against the UK. The UK might expect the Irish to be sold-out on behalf of the English for reasons of history, but the point of the exercise is also to test how viable such assumptions might be.
        Ireland is being played by the EU for the pawn that it is.
        A no-deal Brexit would cause the Irish economy almost as much harm as it would the UK's, perhaps more.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Gooner View Post

          What's the difference between a free trade agreement and the single market?
          Free trade agreement means no tariffs only. Being part of the single market is a lot more complicated.
          we would have to remain part of the customs union.
          All our products and services would have to comply with EU regulations.
          we would effectively still be subject to the EU court of justice
          we would remain subject to European directives and any new ones would apply.
          Basically by remaining part of the single market we would effectively be part of the EU but have no influence on decision making.
          We would continue to make large contributions to EU coffers.
          This is effectively what May’s Chequers proposals are. Luckily it looks like the EU are so greedy that they have rejected them.
          "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Gooner View Post
            "Britain will refuse to pay its £39 billion divorce bill to Brussels if the European Union fails to agree a trade deal, the new Brexit Secretary pledges today.
            Dominic Raab told The Sunday Telegraph that he would make the vast payment formally conditional on the EU “fulfilling its side of the bargain”.
            The promise will be welcomed by leading Brexiteers after the Government said in May that there were no plans for a legally enforceable link between the bill and a future trading relationship."

            https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...-divorce-bill/
            He is just trying to sell it to the domestic crowds. There is no such an agreement or bargain. In fact it has already been agreed previously that there will no talks what so ever of trade related matters - until that divorce bill is agreed and handled. But 'blame the EU' route gets domestic support (and improves chances of re-election) so that is really what this is about.
            It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Surrey View Post
              This is effectively what May’s Chequers proposals are. Luckily it looks like the EU are so greedy that they have rejected them.
              No. That is not what they were. May's proposals were very different from that. Had May actually proposed what you suggested then the EU would not have had much to complain. Problem was that May's proposals went far beyond that without offering anything in return to the EU while also relying on some yet-to-be-invented technologies to handle the border issues and having a some sort judicial oversight over the trade that is neither UK or EU law but would somehow have primacy over both while being subject to both (try figuring that part out).
              It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                He is just trying to sell it to the domestic crowds. There is no such an agreement or bargain. In fact it has already been agreed previously that there will no talks what so ever of trade related matters - until that divorce bill is agreed and handled. But 'blame the EU' route gets domestic support (and improves chances of re-election) so that is really what this is about.
                The fact of the matter is that if the UK doesn't get a satisfactory deal it ain't going to pay the bill. What's the EU going to do, sue us?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                  Free trade agreement means no tariffs only. Being part of the single market is a lot more complicated.
                  we would have to remain part of the customs union.
                  All our products and services would have to comply with EU regulations.
                  If you have a free trade agreement then all your products and services have to comply with the local regulations anyway that you want to see to them.

                  One difference I see with a FTA is that the EU will be able to cherrypick the areas it wants to free trade in - which means no free access for the City of London.

                  The other is that customs officials will be empowered to act like arseholes if they choose. Which rather goes against the spirit of free trade.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Ireland, and the UK for the moment, is part of the EU-US open skies agreement. If there is a hard Brexit then the UK will not be part of that agreement. Therefore they will not be able to enter the airspace of any EU country or, indeed, the airspace of the US.
                    Our PM was just stating the facts. Philip Hammond said the same thing earlier this year. The Sun knows that its readers are too stupid to understand that, and a sensational headline gives the little Englanders a bit of a nationalistic hard-on, but I do expect some posters here to know better.

                    The other thing that’s worth noting is that few people here really care about the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. The total trade with them is only about a billion euro. God knows we aren't looking for a united Ireland (you made it, you can keep it). What really matters is the land bridge that the UK provides between Ireland, through the UK, to the mainland. The European commission is already talking about providing additional (subsidised) ferry and shipping routes directly to the mainland from Ireland.

                    The British taxpayer already provides €7 billion a year in subsidies to the Northern Ireland State-let. That brings the income gap between Northern Ireland and Ireland to the same relative levels as existed between East and West Germany prior to re-unification. After Brexit the British tax payer will have to pay even more to keep Northern Ireland at those East Germany income levels.

                    On the whole Brexit issue it is simply amazing that the UK still can’t get their collective head around that the Four Freedoms are an integral part of the EU, as set out in the Treaty of Rome. The free movement of goods, services, capital and persons within the EU are non negotiable; you can’t have one without the others. That was made clear to the Little Englanders from day one. Why has it not sunk in yet?
                    "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                    validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                    "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                      If you have a free trade agreement then all your products and services have to comply with the local regulations anyway that you want to see to them.

                      One difference I see with a FTA is that the EU will be able to cherrypick the areas it wants to free trade in - which means no free access for the City of London.

                      The other is that customs officials will be empowered to act like arseholes if they choose. Which rather goes against the spirit of free trade.
                      The UK's The National Institute of Economic and Social Research estimated that the Uk's trade in services with the EU will drop by almost two thirds even if the UK secures a free trade agreement with the EU after Brexit.
                      "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                      validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                      "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                        The fact of the matter is that if the UK doesn't get a satisfactory deal it ain't going to pay the bill. What's the EU going to do, sue us?
                        Why would we be suing you? UK would just be ruining its international reputation. You do understand that when the UK signed on to the EU budgets it also pledged itself to take part in those. Leaving doesn't negate that. Only thing UK is now threatening is in practice to default - and hence prove that they can not be trusted financially - de facto debt payments. Not perhaps the best of moves prior to starting discussing trade agreements with other countries but i suppose the opinions may differ. As said before no discussions on trade will even begin before the exit agreement is has been made. If that doesn't happen by the time UK leaves the EU then so be it - then there will be no deal what so ever. Keep in mind that nothing in Art. 50 requires there to be a trade agreement between the leaving country and the EU.
                        It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                          Ireland, and the UK for the moment, is part of the EU-US open skies agreement. If there is a hard Brexit then the UK will not be part of that agreement. Therefore they will not be able to enter the airspace of any EU country or, indeed, the airspace of the US.
                          And the EU nations airlines won't be able to enter UK airspace - which will pretty much guarantee bankrupting every airline in Europe

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                            Why would we be suing you? UK would just be ruining its international reputation. You do understand that when the UK signed on to the EU budgets it also pledged itself to take part in those. Leaving doesn't negate that. Only thing UK is now threatening is in practice to default - and hence prove that they can not be trusted financially - de facto debt payments. Not perhaps the best of moves prior to starting discussing trade agreements with other countries but i suppose the opinions may differ. As said before no discussions on trade will even begin before the exit agreement is has been made. If that doesn't happen by the time UK leaves the EU then so be it - then there will be no deal what so ever. Keep in mind that nothing in Art. 50 requires there to be a trade agreement between the leaving country and the EU.
                            If the EU carries on behaving like arseholes then it would be well worth

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                              Ireland, and the UK for the moment, is part of the EU-US open skies agreement. If there is a hard Brexit then the UK will not be part of that agreement. Therefore they will not be able to enter the airspace of any EU country or, indeed, the airspace of the US.
                              Our PM was just stating the facts. Philip Hammond said the same thing earlier this year. The Sun knows that its readers are too stupid to understand that, and a sensational headline gives the little Englanders a bit of a nationalistic hard-on, but I do expect some posters here to know better.

                              The other thing that’s worth noting is that few people here really care about the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. The total trade with them is only about a billion euro. God knows we aren't looking for a united Ireland (you made it, you can keep it). What really matters is the land bridge that the UK provides between Ireland, through the UK, to the mainland. The European commission is already talking about providing additional (subsidised) ferry and shipping routes directly to the mainland from Ireland.

                              The British taxpayer already provides €7 billion a year in subsidies to the Northern Ireland State-let. That brings the income gap between Northern Ireland and Ireland to the same relative levels as existed between East and West Germany prior to re-unification. After Brexit the British tax payer will have to pay even more to keep Northern Ireland at those East Germany income levels.

                              On the whole Brexit issue it is simply amazing that the UK still can’t get their collective head around that the Four Freedoms are an integral part of the EU, as set out in the Treaty of Rome. The free movement of goods, services, capital and persons within the EU are non negotiable; you can’t have one without the others. That was made clear to the Little Englanders from day one. Why has it not sunk in yet?
                              Geography is not your strong suit. Closing your airspace in peacetime would be correctly perceived as a deeply hostile act which the UK would be fully justified in responding in kind. The vast majority of flights to Ireland from the east go over the UK. Further the UK administers the airspace to the west of Ireland. You better not get seasick as you are going to have to travel by boat if you want to go anywhere....
                              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                                And the EU nations airlines won't be able to enter UK airspace - which will pretty much guarantee bankrupting every airline in Europe
                                Why? UK airspace isn't that big. EU flights can just fly over or under it.
                                The point is that this isn't a EU-UK issue; the UK won't have agreements to fly into anyone's airspace anywhere in the world. It's just another issue, along with food and agricultural standards and many others, that the UK hasn't done any preparation work on.
                                "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                                validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                                "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                                Comment

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