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  • Originally posted by m kenny View Post

    You don't understand. Brexit is the 'Holy Grail' Its a matter of deep faith and no amount of awkward facts is going to get between the faithful and their eagerly anticipated rapture. 'They' care nothing about rules, regulations or precedent. All that matters is that 'we' free ourselves from the 'shackles of the unelected dictators of the Fourth Reich'. We can't have swarthy Johny Foreigner telling us how to behave. Only the UK that has the right to demand everyone else defers to their feelings on any matter and the quicker the Degos realise this the better it will be for them.
    The Daily Mail ran a story the other day about the upsurge in support for Scottish Independence and the comments were overwhelmingly along the lines of 'let the buggers go/we are sick of subsidising them/ how will they manage without out money/the oil belongs to England/good riddance etc,etc,etc.
    The torrent of bile usually reserved for EU citizens shifted effortlessly to the shoulders of the Scots. In short the Little Englanders have a deep and unreasonable hatred for anyone not born in England. They seem not to realise that the South East as a whole is very pro-EU given half the chance would ditch the rest of the country and rejoin the EU. In the main its the failing regions that want to leave not the successful and prosperous parts of the UK.
    The majority of the UK voted to leave the EU, not just 'Little Englanders'. Even in the affluent South East the vote was to leave. The only areas that voted to stay were London, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

    Facts.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Result...ferendum,_2016
    "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Surrey View Post
      Only inefficient producers gain any benefit from protectionism. Erecting tariff barriers means that you are effectively taxing consumers in order to subsidise special interest groups. The classic example of British Leyland can be used here, it was heavily subsidised to produce poor quality but expensive cars. I see no need to repeat the 70s.
      That is true if and only if the starting points for the producers are equal and neither side has benefit from the economy of scale, hidden subsidies or anything like. When we observe the global economy it is quite clear that those of the requirements do not work out for the UK. Further requirement is that every single player would need adhere to the basic rules of market economy - that is not true either. In an ideal world - i.e. in utopia - you would be right, however in the real world outside of utopic fantasies it is not quite that simple. Point was not to take it to the extremes like with Leyland but balance the playing field so that your domestic industries are able to function - and you know, produce. Otherwise you are just outsourcing the production and only thing you end up with is the bill.
      If we import cars that are cheaper and/or better quality for same price than those produced here then we benefit. That's how trade works. Would you pay more for a worse product?
      The consumer certainly benefits at least on the short term. However if the industries/production falls and unemployment soars because of that then on the long term the whole of the UK certainly would not.
      It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
        That is true if and only if the starting points for the producers are equal and neither side has benefit from the economy of scale, hidden subsidies or anything like. When we observe the global economy it is quite clear that those of the requirements do not work out for the UK. Further requirement is that every single player would need adhere to the basic rules of market economy - that is not true either. In an ideal world - i.e. in utopia - you would be right, however in the real world outside of utopic fantasies it is not quite that simple. Point was not to take it to the extremes like with Leyland but balance the playing field so that your domestic industries are able to function - and you know, produce. Otherwise you are just outsourcing the production and only thing you end up with is the bill.

        The consumer certainly benefits at least on the short term. However if the industries/production falls and unemployment soars because of that then on the long term the whole of the UK certainly would not.
        Then we produce other things. If someone else can make something better and cheaper than you can then you buy his and make something else. 80% of the UK economy is service based, the vast majority of employment is in the service sector.
        Protecting a small part of the economy at the expense of the vast majority is madness.
        Trade is not an Olympic sport.
        "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Surrey View Post
          Then we produce other things. If someone else can make something better and cheaper than you can then you buy his and make something else. 80% of the UK economy is service based, the vast majority of employment is in the service sector.
          Protecting a small part of the economy at the expense of the vast majority is madness.
          Trade is not an Olympic sport.
          In the ideal world where everything is on the even ground that surely would be the case. Problem is that in the real world you kinda need to pick if you want to pay less for goods but more for taxes (since you need to pay more unemployment benefits) or pay slightly more for goods but relatively less taxes since there would be less people unemployed. Not to mention that going for full globalisation route (the first of the above) would be a political suicide since one of the reasons (according to polls) why the British wanted out of the EU was the increasing globalisation.
          It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

          Comment


          • Originally posted by the ace View Post
            Despite the avalanche of sewage over the last few days regarding Alex Salmond (he's alleged to have committed 2 sexual assaults 5 years ago - a time when the press would've jumped on it to vilify the case for the indyref) it now seems that 52% of Scots would vote for independence if Brexit goes ahead (compared to 48% if it doesn't). Then again, the independence movement was a lot bigger than one man, even him.

            The Irish seem to think that they'd prefer a United Ireland in the event of Brexit, too - so it's already looking like Brexit will finish the UK - a prospect I can accept philosophically.
            Gosh, so you think maybe barely half the Scots would want independence, provided that it doesn't rain on the polling days?

            I expect a nation that minimally interested in independence will have a dimmer future than Britain. I would suggest you have a greater support base margin than 2% before you try to build a nation.

            I find it hard to believe the Protestants in Northern Ireland are really that eager to to have Catholic rule...but who knows?
            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by the ace View Post
              Overall, there's serious discontent in NI, that the people who were so desperate to remain British that they instigated one of the most brutal Civil Wars in History, are being ignored by the government in whose name they committed a catalogue of crimes.
              You're delusional. In the history of Mankind, the British are the heroes of the saga of Ireland. Anything they did was justified, righteous, and restrained.

              You may not have heard, but terrorists are not thought highly of these days.
              Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                Only inefficient producers gain any benefit from protectionism. Erecting tariff barriers means that you are effectively taxing consumers in order to subsidise special interest groups. The classic example of British Leyland can be used here, it was heavily subsidised to produce poor quality but expensive cars. I see no need to repeat the 70s.

                If we import cars that are cheaper and/or better quality for same price than those produced here then we benefit. That's how trade works. Would you pay more for a worse product?
                I like that one.
                I just hope the current president of the USA and his fans on this forum are reading this as well.

                Off topic, I know, but when the oppurtunity arises........
                "For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post

                  I would suggest you have a greater support base margin than 2% before you try to build a nation.
                  Better to wait until you have a massive and overwhelming 3.8% lead!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post

                    You're delusional. In the history of Mankind, the British are the heroes of the saga of Ireland. Anything they did was justified, righteous, and restrained.
                    Bloody Sunday and the rather less well-known but just as deadly Ballymurphy killings suggest otherwise.
                    Both sides committed terrible murders and trying to make it a black and white situation is just being blinkered.

                    Comment


                    • Yeah... "To hell of Connaught!"... The Black-and-Tans... Etc.
                      [img][/quote]
                      Central Cork, 1920, after the Black-and-Tans were done with it.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post

                        You're delusional. In the history of Mankind, the British are the heroes of the saga of Ireland. Anything they did was justified, righteous, and restrained.

                        You may not have heard, but terrorists are not thought highly of these days.
                        I was talking about the Protestants in NI, you know, the people who scream sectarian abuse at five-year-old girls being walked to school down the, "Wrong," street because it threatens their British identity. They've had to stand by and watch while, "Their," Westminster government has abandoned them.

                        Similar bigots in Scotland are at the core of the anti-independence campaign, along with a Labour Party, that spent the 2014 independence campaign knocking on doors and telling the elderly that they'd lose their pensions (a lie), foreign-born Scots that they'd be repatriated forcibly (the people who advocate this were firmly on the, "No," side), the disabled would lose their benefits (subsequently savagely cut by Westminster), we'd be forced out of the EU (there's no mechanism to do this, and now strongly pro EU Scotland is being removed anyway) etc. etc.

                        One wag summed it up perfectly;

                        "'Yes,' said, "Once in a generation,' believing it to be true. 'No,' said, 'Better Together,' knowing it to be a lie.'"
                        Indyref2 - still, "Yes."

                        Comment


                        • Interesting. Three of the four posters currently arguing in favour of the EU have started spouting terriorist propaganda sympathetic to the IRA. Says it all really.

                          The sooner we are out if the accursed EU the better.
                          "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                            Interesting. Three of the four posters currently arguing in favour of the EU have started spouting terriorist propaganda sympathetic to the IRA. Says it all really.
                            .
                            You are getting desperate.
                            The Northern Ireland problem will never be solved all the while there are those running about blaming all the ills on the other side. Myopic nationalist who see no wrong in anything done by their 'side' and nothing but evil on the opposing side.
                            A pox on the lot of you and you should be locked away in a sealed room until you all kill each other in the name of your flag whilst the rest of us get on with our lives. Making reasonable compromises (rather than demanding the 'enemy' admit they were wrong and you were right) is the only way forward.
                            The time is coming when Unionists will be a minority in the North and I am willing to bet you will then be against any form of vote on re-unification of the Island. Better start getting on with each other whilst the two sides are roughly equal because it sure is going to get a lot harder when one side has a permanent grip on power.

                            And don't speak too soon
                            For the wheel's still in spin
                            And there's no tellin' who
                            That it's namin'.
                            For the loser now
                            Will be later to win
                            For the times they are a-changin'
                            .

                            Last edited by m kenny; 05 Sep 18, 16:55.

                            Comment


                            • Clearly no aspect of British history is in any way over and done with and all in the past, and most importantly as it relates to Ireland. And people wonder why the Eire-NI border issue has taken on such huge proportions in the Brexit discussions?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by the ace View Post

                                I was talking about the Protestants in NI, you know, the people who scream sectarian abuse at five-year-old girls being walked to school down the, "Wrong," street because it threatens their British identity. They've had to stand by and watch while, "Their," Westminster government has abandoned them.

                                Similar bigots in Scotland are at the core of the anti-independence campaign, along with a Labour Party, that spent the 2014 independence campaign knocking on doors and telling the elderly that they'd lose their pensions (a lie), foreign-born Scots that they'd be repatriated forcibly (the people who advocate this were firmly on the, "No," side), the disabled would lose their benefits (subsequently savagely cut by Westminster), we'd be forced out of the EU (there's no mechanism to do this, and now strongly pro EU Scotland is being removed anyway) etc. etc.

                                One wag summed it up perfectly;

                                "'Yes,' said, "Once in a generation,' believing it to be true. 'No,' said, 'Better Together,' knowing it to be a lie.'"
                                So the new Scottish government will guarantee pensions? I haven't seen that memo.

                                Like I said, with only a single digit difference (if it exists) you would be extremely unwise to split. Another tiny nation struggling to survive is not a good bet. I doubt the USA will be inclined to view an independent Scotland favorably, and we would certainly see all North Sea oil go to our long-time ally rather than a bunch of left-wing radicals.

                                Given you were been beaten the last time you begged to be free, I am less than impressed with your chances, and even more doubtful that self-rule and economic direction will be a success.

                                As to North Ireland, the Brits heroically stood against terrorists, and their flag still waves over NI. Centuries of history show they are very hard to dislodge when they don't want to be. Even back when Scots produced men, the British triumphed.

                                You're going to see a sizable majority of Scots to want independence in order to make a go of it. Start talking about an independent Scotland after you're successfully begged to be free.
                                Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                                Comment

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