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  • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
    Those doom laden forecasts, not reports, on what would happen to the UK economy after the UK voted to leave, you consider facts?
    It was quite clear he was not referring to those. But it appears there is no point trying to convince a true believer.
    Well, duh, all forecasts remain to be seen.
    That they are. But how went those 'we hold all the cards', 'the EU will fold', 'easiest trade talks' etc.? Those were made with exact similar tone that is oozing from Frost.
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

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    • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
      Well the personal character development of these people is neither my concern nor my business, but it should suffice to point out that it is not uncommon for the UK government to "advocate" one thing now and something entirely different 10 years later.

      So we account for that in our dealings with them, and so should you imho



      It is this David Frost is it ??
      Of course the U.K. Government's foreign policy positions can and do change over time. All countries change do due numerous reasons both internal and external. That is part of being an independent country.

      Exansion per se was never ever a problem. It was evolution of the EEC into the EU and the deepening relationship that involved that was. As the EU took ever greater powers it became a threat to U.K. Independence thus leading to us leaving. Any EU demands that threaten our independence such as a continued ECJ role in the U.K. after next December are going to be rejected out of hand.
      "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

        Of course the U.K. Government's foreign policy positions can and do change over time. All countries change do due numerous reasons both internal and external. That is part of being an independent country.

        Exansion per se was never ever a problem. It was evolution of the EEC into the EU and the deepening relationship that involved that was. As the EU took ever greater powers it became a threat to U.K. Independence thus leading to us leaving. Any EU demands that threaten our independence such as a continued ECJ role in the U.K. after next December are going to be rejected out of hand.
        EU has no demands. UK want access to OUR single market ? Then you play by OUR rules. Got it ?

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        • Originally posted by Surrey View Post
          Of course the U.K. Government's foreign policy positions can and do change over time. All countries change do due numerous reasons both internal and external. That is part of being an independent country.
          Thus it is entirely reasonable to expect them to change again, and even account for that in your calculations - no ?

          When I first came to ACG people here who considered themselves to be "conservative" and "right-wing" were in all seriousness discussing things like the "invisible hand" and the "trickle-down" effect, the implication was the free market and capitalism would take care of everything and all government interference was considered evil.

          Posters like me and Skoblin who pointed out that that government needs to regulate the market and set limits to free trade were considered "leftists" and even "socialists".

          These days it's all about the "people" on the one hand and the "elite" and "deep state" on the other, strongmen like "Boris", Putin and Trump are applauded for their personal interventions in the market economy…

          But no one here calls *me* a leftist any more

          These things are cyclical apparently, this too will pass...
          Last edited by Snowygerry; 20 Feb 20, 05:16.
          Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

          Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

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          • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

            Thus it is entirely reasonably to expect them to change again, and even account for that in your calculations - no ?

            When I first came to ACG people here who considered themselves to be "conservative" and "right-wing" were in all seriousness discussing things like the "invisible hand" and the "trickle-down" effect, the implication was the free market and capitalism would take care of everything and all government interference was considered evil.

            Posters like me and Skoblin who pointed out that that government needs to regulate the market and set limits to free trade were considered "leftists" and even "socialists".

            These days it's all about the "people" on the one hand and the "elite" and "deep state" on the other, strongmen like "Boris", Putin and Trump are applauded for their personal interventions in the market economy…

            But no one here calls *me* a leftist any more

            These things are cyclical apparently, this too will pass...
            Trump is not regulating the market ,free trade and capitalism are not synonymous,besides today's free trade partisans are leftists .
            Last point : free trade is a myth : US have always been protectionist, even Reagan was protectionist ,the same for the EU.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

              Thus it is entirely reasonably to expect them to change again, and even account for that in your calculations - no ?

              When I first came to ACG people here who considered themselves to be "conservative" and "right-wing" were in all seriousness discussing things like the "invisible hand" and the "trickle-down" effect, the implication was the free market and capitalism would take care of everything and all government interference was considered evil.

              Posters like me and Skoblin who pointed out that that government needs to regulate the market and set limits to free trade were considered "leftists" and even "socialists".

              These days it's all about the "people" on the one hand and the "elite" and "deep state" on the other, strongmen like "Boris", Putin and Trump are applauded for their personal interventions in the market economy…

              But no one here calls *me* a leftist any more

              These things are cyclical apparently, this too will pass...
              I still think you are a bit left wing. And I believe in the invisible hand. State intervention in the market is generally to be avoided and minimised where unavoidable. Trade barriers make most people poorer, especially those in the country that puts up the barriers.
              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                I still think you are a bit left wing. And I believe in the invisible hand. State intervention in the market is generally to be avoided and minimised where unavoidable. Trade barriers make most people poorer, especially those in the country that puts up the barriers.
                ​ oh, wait-that's the visible hand - and the unseen man...
                Last edited by marktwain; 20 Feb 20, 09:52.
                The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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                • Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                  I still think you are a bit left wing. .
                  That's very reassuring to hear, I was getting a bit worried

                  Look the EU developed in a particular political and economic setting and thus it became what it is now, and the British government policy was instrumental in that process for decades.

                  If those settings change, as it looks they are, so inevitably will the EU.

                  But these "new" circumstances will not be eternal either, they never are.
                  Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

                  Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                    I still think you are a bit left wing. And I believe in the invisible hand. State intervention in the market is generally to be avoided and minimised where unavoidable. Trade barriers make most people poorer, especially those in the country that puts up the barriers.
                    Free Trade is something of the past : today, general Free Trade would be suicidal for the developped Western countries .
                    Trade barriers are unavoidable and necessary to protect one's own domestic producers :Joe Chamberlain proposed Imperial Preference after the Boer War and in 1931,Neville Chamberlain succeeded into having voted Imperial Preference by Parliament .
                    Today's Free Traders are globalists, leftwingers,who not only want to destroy trade barriers but also borders and thus states and nations : in the US Democrats as Soros, the Koch Brothers ,Bill Kristol .

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ljadw View Post

                      Free Trade is something of the past : today, general Free Trade would be suicidal for the developped Western countries .
                      Trade barriers are unavoidable and necessary to protect one's own domestic producers :Joe Chamberlain proposed Imperial Preference after the Boer War and in 1931,Neville Chamberlain succeeded into having voted Imperial Preference by Parliament .
                      Today's Free Traders are globalists, leftwingers,who not only want to destroy trade barriers but also borders and thus states and nations : in the US Democrats as Soros, the Koch Brothers ,Bill Kristol .
                      Using either of the Chamberlains as a positive example is a bit dubious to say the least.

                      Trade brings prosperity and has done so since the earliest times. The British Empire was built on trade, mostly with the Americas and the Far East. Brexit frees us to do this again.
                      "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                        Using either of the Chamberlains as a positive example is a bit dubious to say the least.

                        Trade brings prosperity and has done so since the earliest times. The British Empire was built on trade, mostly with the Americas and the Far East. Brexit frees us to do this again.
                        Back then though "free trade" meant dragging the raw materials from the colonies, adding value and exporting finished products again.

                        That business model is hard to replicate now.
                        Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

                        Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

                          Back then though "free trade" meant dragging the raw materials from the colonies, adding value and exporting finished products again.

                          That business model is hard to replicate now.
                          Britain benefited from obtaining goods that were either unavailable at home or cheaper to produce overseas. That is the primary gain of trade. If you can get something from overseas for cheaper than you make it yourself then you gain.
                          "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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                          • It also benfitted from having colonies (well everybody here did), not only were they a source of agricultural products but also a market for manufactured goods.

                            These days there's heavy competition for both…

                            And Europeans no longer control the trade routes, for goods OR people.
                            Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

                            Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                              It also benfitted from having colonies (well everybody here did), not only were they a source of agricultural products but also a market for manufactured goods.

                              These days there's heavy competition for both…

                              And Europeans no longer control the trade routes, for goods OR people.
                              Britain restricted Imperial preference in the 2nd half of the c19th allowing food imports from everywhere, particularly the US.
                              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                              Comment


                              • Well that could be a benefit, you can import cheaper manufactured goods from around the world without EU restrictions, which will probably push consumer prices in the UK down.

                                Selling your own products around the world has become harder though, and without full access to the EU market (and others), commercial profit will suffer.

                                The balance is hard to predict, like many things in economics, the only way to know for sure is to try
                                Last edited by Snowygerry; 20 Feb 20, 08:58.
                                Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

                                Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

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