Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Brexit

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Surrey
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post

    Free Trade is something of the past : today, general Free Trade would be suicidal for the developped Western countries .
    Trade barriers are unavoidable and necessary to protect one's own domestic producers :Joe Chamberlain proposed Imperial Preference after the Boer War and in 1931,Neville Chamberlain succeeded into having voted Imperial Preference by Parliament .
    Today's Free Traders are globalists, leftwingers,who not only want to destroy trade barriers but also borders and thus states and nations : in the US Democrats as Soros, the Koch Brothers ,Bill Kristol .
    Using either of the Chamberlains as a positive example is a bit dubious to say the least.

    Trade brings prosperity and has done so since the earliest times. The British Empire was built on trade, mostly with the Americas and the Far East. Brexit frees us to do this again.

    Leave a comment:


  • ljadw
    replied
    Originally posted by Surrey View Post

    I still think you are a bit left wing. And I believe in the invisible hand. State intervention in the market is generally to be avoided and minimised where unavoidable. Trade barriers make most people poorer, especially those in the country that puts up the barriers.
    Free Trade is something of the past : today, general Free Trade would be suicidal for the developped Western countries .
    Trade barriers are unavoidable and necessary to protect one's own domestic producers :Joe Chamberlain proposed Imperial Preference after the Boer War and in 1931,Neville Chamberlain succeeded into having voted Imperial Preference by Parliament .
    Today's Free Traders are globalists, leftwingers,who not only want to destroy trade barriers but also borders and thus states and nations : in the US Democrats as Soros, the Koch Brothers ,Bill Kristol .

    Leave a comment:


  • Snowygerry
    replied
    Originally posted by Surrey View Post
    I still think you are a bit left wing. .
    That's very reassuring to hear, I was getting a bit worried

    Look the EU developed in a particular political and economic setting and thus it became what it is now, and the British government policy was instrumental in that process for decades.

    If those settings change, as it looks they are, so inevitably will the EU.

    But these "new" circumstances will not be eternal either, they never are.

    Leave a comment:


  • marktwain
    replied
    Originally posted by Surrey View Post

    I still think you are a bit left wing. And I believe in the invisible hand. State intervention in the market is generally to be avoided and minimised where unavoidable. Trade barriers make most people poorer, especially those in the country that puts up the barriers.
    ​ oh, wait-that's the visible hand - and the unseen man...
    Last edited by marktwain; 20 Feb 20, 09:52.

    Leave a comment:


  • Surrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

    Thus it is entirely reasonably to expect them to change again, and even account for that in your calculations - no ?

    When I first came to ACG people here who considered themselves to be "conservative" and "right-wing" were in all seriousness discussing things like the "invisible hand" and the "trickle-down" effect, the implication was the free market and capitalism would take care of everything and all government interference was considered evil.

    Posters like me and Skoblin who pointed out that that government needs to regulate the market and set limits to free trade were considered "leftists" and even "socialists".

    These days it's all about the "people" on the one hand and the "elite" and "deep state" on the other, strongmen like "Boris", Putin and Trump are applauded for their personal interventions in the market economy…

    But no one here calls *me* a leftist any more

    These things are cyclical apparently, this too will pass...
    I still think you are a bit left wing. And I believe in the invisible hand. State intervention in the market is generally to be avoided and minimised where unavoidable. Trade barriers make most people poorer, especially those in the country that puts up the barriers.

    Leave a comment:


  • ljadw
    replied
    Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

    Thus it is entirely reasonably to expect them to change again, and even account for that in your calculations - no ?

    When I first came to ACG people here who considered themselves to be "conservative" and "right-wing" were in all seriousness discussing things like the "invisible hand" and the "trickle-down" effect, the implication was the free market and capitalism would take care of everything and all government interference was considered evil.

    Posters like me and Skoblin who pointed out that that government needs to regulate the market and set limits to free trade were considered "leftists" and even "socialists".

    These days it's all about the "people" on the one hand and the "elite" and "deep state" on the other, strongmen like "Boris", Putin and Trump are applauded for their personal interventions in the market economy…

    But no one here calls *me* a leftist any more

    These things are cyclical apparently, this too will pass...
    Trump is not regulating the market ,free trade and capitalism are not synonymous,besides today's free trade partisans are leftists .
    Last point : free trade is a myth : US have always been protectionist, even Reagan was protectionist ,the same for the EU.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snowygerry
    replied
    Originally posted by Surrey View Post
    Of course the U.K. Government's foreign policy positions can and do change over time. All countries change do due numerous reasons both internal and external. That is part of being an independent country.
    Thus it is entirely reasonable to expect them to change again, and even account for that in your calculations - no ?

    When I first came to ACG people here who considered themselves to be "conservative" and "right-wing" were in all seriousness discussing things like the "invisible hand" and the "trickle-down" effect, the implication was the free market and capitalism would take care of everything and all government interference was considered evil.

    Posters like me and Skoblin who pointed out that that government needs to regulate the market and set limits to free trade were considered "leftists" and even "socialists".

    These days it's all about the "people" on the one hand and the "elite" and "deep state" on the other, strongmen like "Boris", Putin and Trump are applauded for their personal interventions in the market economy…

    But no one here calls *me* a leftist any more

    These things are cyclical apparently, this too will pass...
    Last edited by Snowygerry; 20 Feb 20, 05:16.

    Leave a comment:


  • Metryll
    replied
    Originally posted by Surrey View Post

    Of course the U.K. Government's foreign policy positions can and do change over time. All countries change do due numerous reasons both internal and external. That is part of being an independent country.

    Exansion per se was never ever a problem. It was evolution of the EEC into the EU and the deepening relationship that involved that was. As the EU took ever greater powers it became a threat to U.K. Independence thus leading to us leaving. Any EU demands that threaten our independence such as a continued ECJ role in the U.K. after next December are going to be rejected out of hand.
    EU has no demands. UK want access to OUR single market ? Then you play by OUR rules. Got it ?

    Leave a comment:


  • Surrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
    Well the personal character development of these people is neither my concern nor my business, but it should suffice to point out that it is not uncommon for the UK government to "advocate" one thing now and something entirely different 10 years later.

    So we account for that in our dealings with them, and so should you imho



    It is this David Frost is it ??
    Of course the U.K. Government's foreign policy positions can and do change over time. All countries change do due numerous reasons both internal and external. That is part of being an independent country.

    Exansion per se was never ever a problem. It was evolution of the EEC into the EU and the deepening relationship that involved that was. As the EU took ever greater powers it became a threat to U.K. Independence thus leading to us leaving. Any EU demands that threaten our independence such as a continued ECJ role in the U.K. after next December are going to be rejected out of hand.

    Leave a comment:


  • Vaeltaja
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post
    Those doom laden forecasts, not reports, on what would happen to the UK economy after the UK voted to leave, you consider facts?
    It was quite clear he was not referring to those. But it appears there is no point trying to convince a true believer.
    Well, duh, all forecasts remain to be seen.
    That they are. But how went those 'we hold all the cards', 'the EU will fold', 'easiest trade talks' etc.? Those were made with exact similar tone that is oozing from Frost.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparlingo
    replied
    Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
    I suspect a UK forlorn hope that the Commonwealth will save, it underpins the references to Canada-style deals and – in particular – the phantasm of the non-existant "Australia" one.

    Or it might as well be a "Philippines-style" deal or something.
    Kind of a reversal. When the UK joined the EC it actually abandoned the Commonwealth. DeGaulle said " we will let you join but not the Dominions" in the 60's. When Britain joined the EC in 73 without taking the Dominions it caused a painful dislocation of trade for Aus/NZ/Can

    Leave a comment:


  • Metryll
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post
    ..
    Rather than being objective you are merely typical of those who thinking that those wanting to leave the EU are displaying "irrational false consciousness and fundamentally wrong way of looking at the world."
    Considering that you advocated a non existant Australia-like deal some page ago, it quite clearly demonstrate the "irrational" part...






    Leave a comment:


  • Gooner
    replied
    Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
    Only you have stated so. He however is deliberately ignoring the reports he has got and then whines and complains that he hasn't got such reports which he would prefer. Which implies that he wants reports that align with his opinions instead of being objective. In other words he would like to be able to predict future with supporting reports so your argument does not work.
    Those doom laden forecasts, not reports, on what would happen to the UK economy after the UK voted to leave, you consider facts?


    "The new Treasury-led Brexit forecasts have to be read in the context of their record at predicting what would happen in the immediate aftermath of a Leave vote.

    The HMT prediction for GDP 3 months after the referendum was that “the UK economy would fall into recession” and contract up to -1%. It grew +0.5% in this period.

    The Treasury told us: “The analysis shows that immediately following a vote to leave the EU, the economy would be pushed into a recession, with four quarters of negative growth.” The reality has been positive growth every single quarter since.

    HMT forecast that in the two years following a Leave vote GDP would fall between -3% and -6%. GDP grew by 1.9% in 2016 and 1.8% in 2017, with better than expected growth in the final quarter. There is now no recession forecast.

    On unemployment, they infamously said it would rise by between 500,000 and 820,000 in the immediate aftermath of the referendum. Unemployment fell again last week to a four-decade low.

    And the Treasury said government borrowing would rise by up to £39 billion immediately after the vote. Instead borrowing for the financial year to date is down 12% on the same period last year. That’s the lowest year-to-date total since 2007.



    He is 'thinking', he is 'having no doubts' and so on. Which he is entitled to. But which i do not trust without supporting facts.

    Remains to be seen.
    Well, duh, all forecasts remain to be seen.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snowygerry
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post
    He supported the EU when it was his job, he supprts Leaving out of conviction.
    I suggest to study the memoires of Palmerston or Talleyrand to learn about the conviction of diplomats.


    Or start here

    https://books.google.be/books?id=ZAS...erston&f=false
    Last edited by Snowygerry; 19 Feb 20, 07:44.

    Leave a comment:


  • Vaeltaja
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post
    You believe that people can predict the future?
    Only you have stated so. He however is deliberately ignoring the reports he has got and then whines and complains that he hasn't got such reports which he would prefer. Which implies that he wants reports that align with his opinions instead of being objective. In other words he would like to be able to predict future with supporting reports so your argument does not work.
    Of course the UK can prosper better without a trade deal. We have a £90 billion quid trade deficit with the EU, for a start.
    Which does not quite work like that.
    "I think looking forward, we are going to have a huge advantage over the EU – the ability to set regulations for new sectors, the new ideas, and new conditions – quicker than the EU can, and based on sound science not fear of the future. I have no doubt that we will be able to encourage new investment and new ideas in this way <>
    He is 'thinking', he is 'having no doubts' and so on. Which he is entitled to. But which i do not trust without supporting facts.
    The EU negotiators know this and they are evidently so scared about it, they are pushing their agenda of 'regulatory alignment' They will lose.
    Remains to be seen.

    Leave a comment:

Latest Topics

Collapse

Working...
X