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  • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

    Boris's threat to eliminate the rebels reminds my of Operation Catapult. By removing the rebels from the Party and replacing them with loyal Boris candidates he both removes the direct threat of Hammond et al and sends a message to the wider world and electorate that he is serious about Brexit.

    Making the Conservatives the no-deal-Brexit-party in the process. Since he has absolutely zero mandate for anything he is currently doing, one would guess calling a parliamentary election is a bit overdue. Too bad it's timing relative the Brexit process is atrocious. Again, too bad the British political system only really allows a Johnsonian no-deal-Brexit-party squaring off against a Corbynised-Labour. Considering neither really reflect voter opinion, but political alternatives are still-born for systemic reasons, something is not working.

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    • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
      Making the Conservatives the no-deal-Brexit-party in the process.
      Not sure of that, if they have an election now the pro-Brexit vote will likely be split between Johnson and Farage and his Brexit party.

      They seem to be communicating vessels to some degree.



      Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Game.

      Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

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      • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

        Not sure of that, if they have an election now the pro-Brexit vote will likely be split between Johnson and Farage and his Brexit party.

        They seem to be communicating vessels to some degree.


        The whole set up is also an artifact of the FPTP system. Both purging the Tories on no-deal-Brexit-non-true-believers and how it might work because Corbyn is still unthinkable for most British.

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        • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
          The whole set up is also an artifact of the FPTP system. Both purging the Tories on no-deal-Brexit-non-true-believers and how it might work because Corbyn is still unthinkable for most British.
          A party must appear united to win an election. The quickest way to do that is to dispose of the rebels.

          "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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          • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

            The attack on the Vichy fleet ?

            Well I watched the surprise cabinet meeting, or fragments of it at least, the arrival of the ministers, the new dog at Downing Street, and Johnsons speech.....

            Didn't quite know what to make of it, to be honest…..

            Full text here :

            https://www.theguardian.com/politics...0812d9e0267a5c



            Reeks of elections doesn't it ?

            and yet …......
            Boris wants an election but he must appear to be forced into it. The rebels are doing him a favour. By destroying his majority and blocking his policies he has clear justification for an election and further the opportunity to solidify his Brexit credentials by cleansing his remaining internal opponents.
            "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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            • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

              Boris wants an election but he must appear to be forced into it. The rebels are doing him a favour. By destroying his majority and blocking his policies he has clear justification for an election and further the opportunity to solidify his Brexit credentials by cleansing his remaining internal opponents.
              The 'Rebels' had little directly to to with it. The majority was lost because of the asinine bluster and Bulindon bullying hardened opposition - political ineptitude. Language like 'cleansing' does betray a somewhat extreme position.
              Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
              Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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              • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                A party must appear united to win an election. The quickest way to do that is to dispose of the rebels.
                Absolutely. But any party that has mass-support HAS to be a broad church, accommodating right-left-centre-the religious-and-then-some. Like this that's not going to be the Tories anymore then. Never mind that Labour got there first with Corbyn.

                But what happens in most parliamentary systems is that when the broad appeal dissipates, other parties, or even brand new parties, pick up the voters, and that is converted into parliamentary representation.

                But the way the Westminster system currently works (for a certain values) the extremists in both dominant parties can apparently take over, purge the non-true-believers, while reasonably assuming the will retain enough voters to continue to near-monopolize parliamentary representation, even if their voter base is a shrinking minority.

                Yes, it's stable. Sure, it's still democratic. Just decreasingly representative.

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                • In the end what do these shenanigans of the UK parliament actually matter with regards of the Brexit? For the EU it really doesn't matter which party (or group) happens to be on top in the HoC - it doesn't matter who is sitting in No. 10 either. It doesn't even matter if the composition of the HoC changes - the number of MPs supporting something doesn't really grant anything for discussions with the EU (so 'stronger mandate' stuff is rather nonsensical).

                  New extensions? Some here have been strangely convinced that the UK would just need to ask for one and the EU would grant it - that is not how it goes. The EU quite clearly marked that their stance would be to not grant further extensions without valid reasons (like referendum or elections), and it seems unlikely to shift from that.

                  Realistically regardless of these current theatrics should the UK want to exit from the EU with an agreement they need to come up with a solution to the N.I. Two of the logistically easiest options would be to have N.I. only backstop or having border poll.
                  It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

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                  • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
                    Absolutely. But any party that has mass-support HAS to be a broad church, accommodating right-left-centre-the religious-and-then-some. Like this that's not going to be the Tories anymore then. Never mind that Labour got there first with Corbyn.

                    But what happens in most parliamentary systems is that when the broad appeal dissipates, other parties, or even brand new parties, pick up the voters, and that is converted into parliamentary representation.

                    But the way the Westminster system currently works (for a certain values) the extremists in both dominant parties can apparently take over, purge the non-true-believers, while reasonably assuming the will retain enough voters to continue to near-monopolize parliamentary representation, even if their voter base is a shrinking minority.

                    Yes, it's stable. Sure, it's still democratic. Just decreasingly representative.
                    The way i see it is that with giving the boot to the MPs they are eroding the one of the key aspects of the FPTP system - that is that voters have their own local MPs who actually represent them. With giving the boot the Tories (it is not limited to them, but just more recent example) are showing that in reality their local MPs do not actually matter at all and it is only the party, and the party line, that really matters. At which point you might ask why not go fully with that route to actually proportional representation (be it via open or closed lists).

                    Might be even more healthy allowing different groups within the parties to actually have their own directions. After all the FPTP is kind of designed to stamp out any dissent from the party lines since a split to a party will mean a near certain loss for both sides of the split (so that neither side gains voice in the parliament).
                    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                      Boris wants an election but he must appear to be forced into it. The rebels are doing him a favour. By destroying his majority and blocking his policies he has clear justification for an election and further the opportunity to solidify his Brexit credentials by cleansing his remaining internal opponents.
                      Hopefully for him it works, to me, it appears as it another Conservative leader is underestimating his electorate, after Cameron and his referendum, May and her election, once again one of them is trying to "trick" the electorate into doing his bidding to improve the political position.

                      Two failed, we'll see how the third fares ...
                      Last edited by Snowygerry; 04 Sep 19, 04:03.
                      Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Game.

                      Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                        In the end what do these shenanigans of the UK parliament actually matter with regards of the Brexit? For the EU it really doesn't matter which party (or group) happens to be on top in the HoC - it doesn't matter who is sitting in No. 10 either. It doesn't even matter if the composition of the HoC changes - the number of MPs supporting something doesn't really grant anything for discussions with the EU (so 'stronger mandate' stuff is rather nonsensical).
                        Ideally negotiations should be between the UK and the EU, not Johnson/May/Cameron and Tusk/Juncker/Whatever….

                        On the EU side that seems to work beyond expectations, not so on the UK side however, it seems that everyone has his own idea on how Brexit should look like, even discounting those that flat out oppose it.
                        Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Game.

                        Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
                          Absolutely. But any party that has mass-support HAS to be a broad church, accommodating right-left-centre-the religious-and-then-some. Like this that's not going to be the Tories anymore then. Never mind that Labour got there first with Corbyn.

                          But what happens in most parliamentary systems is that when the broad appeal dissipates, other parties, or even brand new parties, pick up the voters, and that is converted into parliamentary representation.

                          But the way the Westminster system currently works (for a certain values) the extremists in both dominant parties can apparently take over, purge the non-true-believers, while reasonably assuming the will retain enough voters to continue to near-monopolize parliamentary representation, even if their voter base is a shrinking minority.

                          Yes, it's stable. Sure, it's still democratic. Just decreasingly representative.
                          That is what happened to May. Under May the Conservatives moved to the left and were very Pro EU, essentially her policy was to be as close to the EU as possible and then rejoin again in a few years. This created a gap for a right of centre party that was in favour of Brexit to form, hence the Brexit Party.
                          The Tories are now moving back to a centre right Brexit position in order to recapture the votes that they lost to the BP.

                          The Conservatives had been moving to the left since Major, with May being to the left of where Blair and Brown were. This allowed her to be outflanked on the right. Boris is not extreme, he is just a bit nearer to Thatcher.

                          "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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                          • Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                            The 'Rebels' had little directly to to with it. The majority was lost because of the asinine bluster and Bulindon bullying hardened opposition - political ineptitude.
                            The gambit appears to have backfired badly. There may well have been less rebels if Boris hadn't have threatened to withdraw the Whip.
                            I don't think Dominic Cummings was a member of the Bullingdon Club though

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                            • Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                              That is what happened to May. Under May the Conservatives moved to the left and were very Pro EU, essentially her policy was to be as close to the EU as possible and then rejoin again in a few years. This created a gap for a right of centre party that was in favour of Brexit to form, hence the Brexit Party.
                              The Tories are now moving back to a centre right Brexit position in order to recapture the votes that they lost to the BP.

                              The Conservatives had been moving to the left since Major, with May being to the left of where Blair and Brown were. This allowed her to be outflanked on the right. Boris is not extreme, he is just a bit nearer to Thatcher.
                              May made a massive mistake with her Red Lines, putting prerequisites in place which made a deal with the EU next to impossible.
                              Even Nigel Farage thought that Brexit would take ten years and that the UK would have to remain in the Customs Union for much of that time.
                              The old fogies who votes in BoJo have done to the Tories what the Trade Union’s did to Labour by electing Corbyn.

                              It’s interesting that two senior bankers, one from Deutsche Bank and one from Citi Bank have said that a Corbyn government would be less damaging to the UK that Brexit since whatever Corbyn does can be reversed by the next government but BoJo’s blundering will be permanent.

                              Will he be the first PM in UK history to never win a vote in the House of Commons?
                              Will he be the shortest serving PM ever?
                              "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                              validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                              "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

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                              • The European Union reminds me of an abusive wife where the husband can't divorce her without first getting emotionally and financially destroyed in the process.

                                She wants the house, his money, alimony, his belongings and to amputate his very soul, only when this has been achieved will she be happy enough to let him go.

                                As far as I'm concerned the European Union should be consigned to the pages of history, where it belongs.

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