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Trump rattles NATO, questioning its value, assailing Germany

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  • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post

    NATO is a waste of money for the US of A, like the UN we need to pull out. It's time for Europe to put it's big boy pants on and defend themselves.
    That's just you saying you don't understand what you've got there, since you can't see the value. I dare say you have a lot of countrymen who share this view of yours, at this point beginning and ending with your president.

    What are we to make of it, if we don't take it as falling somewhere between pig-ignorance and shocking lack of imagination?

    Like most things surrounding Trumpian politics there's no point in trying to offer arguments anymore. The problem you might find is that fighting wars is more expensive than not fighting them, but proving that war was prevented amounts to proving a negative, and that can't be done.

    So, like with Trump's budding trade wars, I guess we have to do this for some decades to come, and then we can have the US reassess how well it all worked.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Konzev View Post
      You have to live with the lies of those "institutions", that will work as long as they do not crash down on you.
      Then prove them wrong with the evidence that has convinced you otherwise - i mean you clearly must have plenty of rock solid proof to support your opinion. But do remember that you yourself insisted that they would have been wrong so once again the burden of proof is fully yours.
      You have a real problem producing tangible evidence. And an anger management problem.
      Now you just giving an apt description of yourself - especially in light of your refusal to shoulder the burden of proof.
      It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
        Everyone knew that the post WWI order was an illusion: sooner or later Germany would challenge this order and France and Britain arrived at the conclusion that they would not oppose this challenge, as long as there was no war .
        After WWII Britain and the US left the continent, returning when there was a new danger against which a weak France could do nothing .
        US occupation forces left Germany only in 1923, British occupation forces only in 1929.
        After WWII British and US forces did not leave the continent.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
          It all goes back to the French insistence in 1919 that only the US had the heft and legitimacy to really provide the guarantees for the post-WWI situation, and so would need to stay in Europe. The only curious bit is that the US remembered this in 1945. Now Trump, and the later US generations, have forgotten this.
          This confirms the belief by some that NATO was originally put in place to “keep the Russians out, the Germans down and the U.S. in.”
          Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post

            That's just you saying you don't understand what you've got there, since you can't see the value. I dare say you have a lot of countrymen who share this view of yours, at this point beginning and ending with your president.

            What are we to make of it, if we don't take it as falling somewhere between pig-ignorance and shocking lack of imagination?

            Like most things surrounding Trumpian politics there's no point in trying to offer arguments anymore. The problem you might find is that fighting wars is more expensive than not fighting them, but proving that war was prevented amounts to proving a negative, and that can't be done.

            So, like with Trump's budding trade wars, I guess we have to do this for some decades to come, and then we can have the US reassess how well it all worked.
            So then, why haven't YOU and the rest of Europe paid their fair share of the expenses? Because NATO is so relevant to you? Stop with the jokes. BTW, do you need the USA to help tie your shoes? You can have your own alliance without us if you feel so confident, I fear you don't have much as it has shown in your history.
            My worst jump story:
            My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
            As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
            No lie.

            ~
            "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
            -2 Commando Jumpmaster

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tsar View Post

              This confirms the belief by some that NATO was originally put in place to “keep the Russians out, the Germans down and the U.S. in.”
              Now that Europe has become a full-fledged Muslim/LGBTQ continent Russia isn't interested.
              My worst jump story:
              My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
              As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
              No lie.

              ~
              "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
              -2 Commando Jumpmaster

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
                a full-fledged Muslim/LGBTQ continent
                On any other forum, I would consider anyone denouncing someone as "Muslim/LGBTQ" to be joking,
                Reaction to the 2016 Munich shootings:
                Europe: "We are shocked and support you in these harsh times, we stand by you."
                USA: "We will check people from Germany extra-hard and it is your own damn fault for being so stupid."

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Acheron View Post
                  On any other forum, I would consider anyone denouncing someone as "Muslim/LGBTQ" to be joking,
                  So you still fear a Russian invasion? Also, if you can pay for immigrants why can't you pay your fair share of NATO expenses?
                  My worst jump story:
                  My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                  As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                  No lie.

                  ~
                  "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                  -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                    US occupation forces left Germany only in 1923, British occupation forces only in 1929.
                    After WWII British and US forces did not leave the continent.
                    Baor was 13360 men in 1920 ,all in, thus negligible .

                    Baor was ONE division in 1948, thus negligible .
                    Til the Korean war, Baor was an occupation army, powerles to stop a Soviet attack .
                    It was the same for the US forces in Germany :they also were an occupation force of one division and also powerles to stop a Soviet attack .

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
                      So then, why haven't YOU and the rest of Europe paid their fair share of the expenses? Because NATO is so relevant to you? Stop with the jokes. BTW, do you need the USA to help tie your shoes? You can have your own alliance without us if you feel so confident, I fear you don't have much as it has shown in your history.
                      First off - Sweden is not a NATO member state. So it is not really part of the 'NATO-equation'. Second, I'm not quite sure you understand what 'fair share' means here - especially when AFAIK none of the member states have neglected paying their fair share of the direct NATO expenses. As it is wise to keep in mind that none of the funds used for the military expenditure by the other NATO countries go to paying the US expenses so what exactly do you perceive as 'fair share'? Not at least directly - they may contribute to US military industry but then again European countries have been building their industry back up so even that is far from certain. Increased expenditure would be unlikely to affect (well, unlikely in positive manner at least) their participation to tasks outside those outlined in the NATO charter.
                      It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                      Comment


                      • It was Obama who ordered to withdraw the last US operational ground forces from Europe in 2013, and who ruled Russia in 2013 ? Yes, Putin . And Obama's leftwing friends in Europe remained silent, but now they demand that US should pay additional $ billions to stop Putin .
                        Band of hypocrites .

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post

                          So you still fear a Russian invasion? Also, if you can pay for immigrants why can't you pay your fair share of NATO expenses?
                          We do. As usual some here confuse defense spending and NATO spending. For the later Europe pay for 77%+ of cost.

                          https://www.nato.int/cps/ie/natohq/topics_67655.htm

                          Blonk (sound of reality rebounding on thick idelogical armor...)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Metryll View Post

                            We do. As usual some here confuse defense spending and NATO spending. For the later Europe pay for 77%+ of cost.

                            https://www.nato.int/cps/ie/natohq/topics_67655.htm

                            Blonk (sound of reality rebounding on thick idelogical armor...)
                            Say again?

                            My worst jump story:
                            My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                            As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                            No lie.

                            ~
                            "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                            -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                              First off - Sweden is not a NATO member state. So it is not really part of the 'NATO-equation'. Second, I'm not quite sure you understand what 'fair share' means here - especially when AFAIK none of the member states have neglected paying their fair share of the direct NATO expenses. As it is wise to keep in mind that none of the funds used for the military expenditure by the other NATO countries go to paying the US expenses so what exactly do you perceive as 'fair share'? Not at least directly - they may contribute to US military industry but then again European countries have been building their industry back up so even that is far from certain. Increased expenditure would be unlikely to affect (well, unlikely in positive manner at least) their participation to tasks outside those outlined in the NATO charter.
                              Yeah, sure.

                              My worst jump story:
                              My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                              As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                              No lie.

                              ~
                              "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                              -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                                Then prove them wrong with the evidence that has convinced you otherwise - i mean you clearly must have plenty of rock solid proof to support your opinion. But do remember that you yourself insisted that they would have been wrong so once again the burden of proof is fully yours.
                                I feel quite comfortable with Chris Hedges:
                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Hedges
                                Willy Wimmer:
                                https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willy_Wimmer
                                David Richard Precht:
                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_David_Precht
                                General Harald Kujat
                                https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_Kujat
                                https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/polit...idrig-100.html
                                Noam Chomsky:
                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky
                                Dirk Mueller (Mr.Dax):
                                https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk_M...3%B6rsenmakler)
                                Sarah Wagenknecht:
                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahra_Wagenknecht
                                Tilo Jung:
                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilo_Jung

                                Just to name a few, those are the persons, that deserve my attention, that I feel comfortable with, and to whom I give my respect and admiration.
                                You figure out the remainder.


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