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Trump rattles NATO, questioning its value, assailing Germany

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  • Originally posted by Konzev View Post
    It comes down to faith, the Cato institude is an American libertarian think tank. Located in washington DC. It's like you wanted to research an Institution in Berlin at the time of the Third Reich. And here comes the spicy issue, funding: By the Koch brothes. Do you really want to know, what I think about it ?

    The freedomhouse.org, you got to be kidding me: A US Government financed organization. Why don't you get your ideological pills not directly from the Pentagon ?

    I'm surprised, that you like a foundation, that is entirely financed by crowdfunding, that raised $125.000 for Chelsea Manning defence.
    So, what did they endorse to support your neo liberal Corporate world view ?

    Did you not know, that this organzation was funded by George Soros :
    "Financier and philanthropist George Soros of the Open Society Foundation announced in 2010 his intention to grant US $100 million to HRW over a period of ten years to help it expand its efforts internationally."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...g_and_services

    This is not another source, it's a statement from the Human Rights Watch which = more BS.
    Whatever floats your boat.
    You are wasting your time if you want to , or better bombard me with more Corporate funded Fake News BS.
    I'm starting doubt if you are actually literate since neither of those were any sort of news articles... But instead scientific studies or articles with regard to the freedom (of expression) - or rather the lack thereoff - in Russia.
    That is not only my problem, even more so , yours.
    Given that the problem exists in your own ability to recollect things it is quite clearly not any problem of mine.
    After shouldering your BS, this is no guarantee, that it is free of it.
    As expected - just more excuses and attempts of weaseling away from shouldering your own burden of proof.
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Karri View Post

      Yeah, we are genetically predisposed for dictatorships. Nowhere else in the world has a dictatorships ever ruled.

      Well, not in the U.S.
      Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
        You should have stuck around in 1919, when the French asked you to, like you did in 1945, after gauging the outcome of buggering out in 1919.

        The problem now is that you have a bug-out president in Trump, and he effectively wants to do a belated bugger out of the entire post-1945 history.

        Why is that beneficial for the US again?

        The US lost the peace in 1919, but got very wise in 1945, and so won that peace instead. Trump however wants to **** it all away now.
        I am pretty sure it was Europe that lost the peace in 1939 :wink:

        But there is truth there and that truth is that Europe needs NATO more than the United States does.


        Looking at the forces arrayed, maintaining it has not become simpler, and the adversaries are stronger than before, but effectively Trump is about to throw a game that is nowhere close to being lost yet.

        Mostly because apparently he fundamentally does not understand not just the rules, but the game itself. He doesn't even recognize what he's looking at.
        No, Trump does not want to destroy NATO rather the opposite he wants NATO to become stronger through the European nations pulling their weight.


        It probably won't be Trump but a future American president who pulls the plug on NATO when they have finally become sick and tired of the being lied to by European nations who believe they are so cute that they are somehow entitled to US protection.


        Comment


        • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

          I am pretty sure it was Europe that lost the peace in 1939 :wink:

          But there is truth there and that truth is that Europe needs NATO more than the United States does.




          No, Trump does not want to destroy NATO rather the opposite he wants NATO to become stronger through the European nations pulling their weight.


          It probably won't be Trump but a future American president who pulls the plug on NATO when they have finally become sick and tired of the being lied to by European nations who believe they are so cute that they are somehow entitled to US protection.

          That's fervent optimism under the circumstances.

          The more Trump takes hold of the US, the more crucial for the EU to develop its own security infrastructure.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

            I am pretty sure it was Europe that lost the peace in 1939 :wink:
            The peace that was lost in 1939 was based on the French providing the muscle to maintain the post-WWI situation. The French tried in 1923, only to find that not only was the US absent (which was known) but the UK was predisposed to side with the Germans. At which point the plan to have France be the guarantor of the post-WWI order in Europe could be seen to have failed. For lack of any real infrastructure to support the post-WWI order, and for lack of political backing, the French fell back to a purely defensive position.

            It all goes back to the French insistence in 1919 that only the US had the heft and legitimacy to really provide the guarantees for the post-WWI situation, and so would need to stay in Europe. The only curious bit is that the US remembered this in 1945. Now Trump, and the later US generations, have forgotten this.

            Possibly this was always inevitable. Still means the EU needs to put its own security infrastructure in place. And it's not what Trump thinks it is. He is still about to throw a game that was not lost. It's an unforced error.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post

              That's fervent optimism under the circumstances.
              What that the US will have presidents after Trump?

              Obama's defence secretary was getting narked with the Euros years ago, hence the 2014 NATO agreement.

              The more Trump takes hold of the US, the more crucial for the EU to develop its own security infrastructure.
              Yeah who would the Balts, the Poles the Romanians etc prefer to have backing them up? France and Germany or the United States?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
                The only curious bit is that the US remembered this in 1945. Now Trump, and the later US generations, have forgotten this.
                Actually the US bugged out in 1945 almost as quick as they did in 1919. NATO only came about after the Western Union of 1948 and persistent badgering, primarily by Britain, to get militarily reinvolved in Europe.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                  Actually the US bugged out in 1945 almost as quick as they did in 1919. NATO only came about after the Western Union of 1948 and persistent badgering, primarily by Britain, to get militarily reinvolved in Europe.
                  The US kept troops in Europe during and after 1945 and it should be remembered that the Berlin Airlift was largely a US operation. The US has maintained troops in Germany since 1945. I served there twice during the Cold War.

                  Trump's ignorance and his insulting the NATO allies is something quite new. It is also counter-productive.
                  We are not now that strength which in old days
                  Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                  Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                  To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Massena View Post

                    The US kept troops in Europe during and after 1945 and it should be remembered that the Berlin Airlift was largely a US operation. The US has maintained troops in Germany since 1945. I served there twice during the Cold War.

                    The Berlin airlift was a largely Anglo-American affair. The British sort of came up with the idea whilst the US were still toying with the idea of driving convoys through to Berlin.

                    Total US forces in Germany at that time were <100,000 of whom < one-third were combat troops.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                      Total US forces in Germany at that time were <100,000 of whom < one-third were combat troops.
                      So, I guess the US didn't 'bug out' in 1945, now did they?

                      We are not now that strength which in old days
                      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
                        Perhaps Mr Trump forgot about the deaths of 57 German servicemen in Afghanistan: a conflict originally brought about by an attack on the USA.
                        And, after all, Germany has to secure its energy requirements from somewhere.
                        Uh? Don't forget to include Al-Qaeda.
                        My worst jump story:
                        My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                        As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                        No lie.

                        ~
                        "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                        -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                          I am pretty sure it was Europe that lost the peace in 1939 :wink:

                          But there is truth there and that truth is that Europe needs NATO more than the United States does.




                          No, Trump does not want to destroy NATO rather the opposite he wants NATO to become stronger through the European nations pulling their weight.


                          It probably won't be Trump but a future American president who pulls the plug on NATO when they have finally become sick and tired of the being lied to by European nations who believe they are so cute that they are somehow entitled to US protection.

                          NATO is a waste of money for the US of A, like the UN we need to pull out. It's time for Europe to put it's big boy pants on and defend themselves.
                          My worst jump story:
                          My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                          As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                          No lie.

                          ~
                          "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                          -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
                            The peace that was lost in 1939 was based on the French providing the muscle to maintain the post-WWI situation. The French tried in 1923, only to find that not only was the US absent (which was known) but the UK was predisposed to side with the Germans. At which point the plan to have France be the guarantor of the post-WWI order in Europe could be seen to have failed. For lack of any real infrastructure to support the post-WWI order, and for lack of political backing, the French fell back to a purely defensive position.

                            It all goes back to the French insistence in 1919 that only the US had the heft and legitimacy to really provide the guarantees for the post-WWI situation, and so would need to stay in Europe. The only curious bit is that the US remembered this in 1945. Now Trump, and the later US generations, have forgotten this.

                            Possibly this was always inevitable. Still means the EU needs to put its own security infrastructure in place. And it's not what Trump thinks it is. He is still about to throw a game that was not lost. It's an unforced error.
                            US were not an ally of France, but an associate power.And it is not so that Britain was siding with Germany ,Britain was not willing to station for an indefinite time, an occupation army in Germany ,in 1914 Britain intervened to save France,after WWI, there was no situation where France was in danger .

                            Everyone knew that the post WWI order was an illusion: sooner or later Germany would challenge this order and France and Britain arrived at the conclusion that they would not oppose this challenge, as long as there was no war .
                            After WWII Britain and the US left the continent, returning when there was a new danger against which a weak France could do nothing .
                            And when in 1991 this danger disappeared, Britain and the US left again and the others disarmed materially and mentally ,using the released money to support millions of illegal immigrants and to compete unfairly with the US .

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                              Everyone knew that the post WWI order was an illusion: sooner or later Germany would challenge this order and France and Britain arrived at the conclusion that they would not oppose this challenge, as long as there was no war .
                              US and Britain played an important role in German return by greatly decreasing the volume of war reparations, providing credits and political help to Germany. Had the French policy been followed, maybe there wouldn't be a WWII. But US wanted money and Britain wanted to prevent France from becoming a dominant force in Europe.
                              There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                                Whatever floats your boat.
                                .
                                It floats well, because the baggage above went overboard a long time ago.

                                Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                                I'm starting doubt if you are actually literate since neither of those were any sort of news articles... But instead scientific studies or articles with regard to the freedom (of expression) - or rather the lack thereoff - in Russia.
                                .
                                You have to live with the lies of those "institutions", that will work as long as they do not crash down on you.
                                And taken into account the last three years, your beloved ideology settled between Neo Liberal and Neo Con is cracking.

                                Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                                aja;Given that the problem exists in your own ability to recollect things it is quite clearly not any problem of mine.
                                .
                                Than why are you stalking me with your BS ?


                                Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post

                                As expected - just more excuses and attempts of weaseling away from shouldering your own burden of proof.
                                .[/QUOTE]

                                You have a real problem producing tangible evidence. And an anger management problem.

                                Comment

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