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Trump rattles NATO, questioning its value, assailing Germany

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post

    Jens Stoltenberg:
    "
    We have had a very good summit.
    Over the past two days, we have taken major decisions to strengthen NATO’s deterrence and defence.
    To step up in the fight against terrorism.
    And to ensure fair burden-sharing among all Allies.

    I told you earlier this week that I expected frank discussions on burden-sharing.
    And that’s exactly what we had.

    That is what we do among friends and Allies.

    All Allies have heard President Trump’s message loud and clear.
    We understand that this American president is very serious about defence spending.
    And this is having a clear impact.

    After years of decline, when Allies were cutting billions,
    now they are adding billions.
    Before, the trend was down.
    Now, the trend is up.
    In fact, since President Trump took office, European Allies and Canada have added an additional 41 billion dollars to their defence spending.

    And all Allies have committed to raise this number substantially.
    So we are stepping up as never before.

    Allowing US spending to go down.

    There is a new sense of urgency due to President Trump’s strong leadership on defence spending.

    Today, all Allies agreed to redouble their efforts.
    And this will make NATO stronger.

    All Allies are committed to NATO.
    And that was very clear from all the 29 leaders around the table today."
    https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_156738.htm



    I am pretty sure not reducing defence spending any more if its below 2% is not a NATO guideline. Or at least not anymore.

    Still it does remain to be seen how trustworthy the Europeans are.
    Trump humiliated Stoltenberg:
     

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
      From NATO's site:
      Only requirement is that 'halt any decline' exactly - the rest like 'aim to increase' or 'aim move towards' are not requirements or demands but instead hopeful wishes as there is no requirement to actually reach that 2% mark.
      Why would you argue about that? The requirement is to aim for 2%.


      Europeans pledged to abide by the above agreement reached among NATO member states. And that is what they will do. It however won't be the same what Trump clearly imagines it as being.
      German planned defence spending of a few weeks ago will actually see defence spending decline as a percentage of GDP.

      We'll wait and see.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Gooner View Post
        Why would you argue about that? The requirement is to aim for 2%.
        'To aim'. Not 'to reach'. And that makes it a whole different case.
        German planned defence spending of a few weeks ago will actually see defence spending decline as a percentage of GDP.

        We'll wait and see.
        Well, the goal was to reach that mark only by 2024 - so what happens now is largely irrelevant.
        It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
          We need out of NATO. It would save billions, and force the Europeans to deal with their own problems.
          And if the Americans stayed home and didnt go sticking their nose into everybodys elses buisness like the whole Middle East, the world would be a better place.....but as we know that will never happen

          TOULON fRANCE

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          • #20
            Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
            Perhaps Mr Trump forgot about the deaths of 57 German servicemen in Afghanistan: a conflict originally brought about by an attack on the USA.
            And, after all, Germany has to secure its energy requirements from somewhere.
            Not forgetting the fact that Germany bought the gas/oi from the Russians with hard cash as at the time Russia was in need of cash for food.......How dare Germany deal with anybody the US dosnt like....of course if the energy had been bought from a US company Mr Loudmouth would never have said a word .

            PS.....Regarding the US military leaving Europe......I know a large contingent of locals who would help them pack

            Toulon France

            Comment


            • #21
              Trump has no idea what he's doing. NATO, with all its faults, is the best military alliance in history. All Trump cares about is money and clearly doesn't understand that NATO is the reason there have been no major wars since 1945. And Trump's little buddy Putin would like nothing better than NATO to fall apart.

              And since Trump is nothing more than Putin's puppet, perhaps that is his goal-to please the puppet master.

              In his news conference, Trump once again exaggerated and lied-par for the course for Trump. If he stood on a stack of Bibles and stated that the sky was blue on a sunny day, I'd still check.
              We are not now that strength which in old days
              Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
              Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
              To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

              Comment


              • #22
                Trump should have focused more on the way Germany treated the Baltics and Poland by not including them in the pipeline deal with Russia, not just on Germany simply buying gas from Russia. Which for many may seem something inevitable and business-like/normal in a world of complex trade relations and interdependencies.

                Comment


                • #23
                  What Trump should actually concentrate on is being accurate in his summations and his accusations. Unfortunately for the US, he has embarrassed the United States and himself. He really has no idea what NATO is for.

                  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...cid=spartandhp
                  We are not now that strength which in old days
                  Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                  Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                  To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post



                    He does well. It's good to shake things up a bit.
                    Of course it is, but the whole thing still looks so useless to me.
                    There is no threat to NATO anymore. I don't see how it would be possible for Russia to win against NATO countries even if you take the US out of the equation entirely. It just ain't gonna happen.

                    From that one factor, the entire premise for NATO falls apart.
                    Unless you can tell me WHY this thing still exists, everything else is meaningless.
                    "Why is the Rum gone?"

                    -Captain Jack

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post

                      Of course it is, but the whole thing still looks so useless to me.
                      There is no threat to NATO anymore. I don't see how it would be possible for Russia to win against NATO countries even if you take the US out of the equation entirely. It just ain't gonna happen.

                      From that one factor, the entire premise for NATO falls apart.
                      Unless you can tell me WHY this thing still exists, everything else is meaningless.
                      I like when Trump said: "Russia is our competitor, but not our enemy"

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Stoltenberg made a fool of himself.

                        The European leaders claimed they are already increasing their defense spending, while omitting to tell the world that the spending in question is still below the 2% GNP agreed upon level (with the exception of five nations out of 29).

                        Germany had no reply when Trump questioned how a nation that gave billions to Russia for oil and gas could present itself as needing protection from that same Russia, provided by America, and told the Germans they now "belong to Russia", which holds enormous leverage over their nation by virtue of their control over the huge pipeline that serves Germany.
                        Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                          'To aim'. Not 'to reach'. And that makes it a whole different case.

                          Well, the goal was to reach that mark only by 2024 - so what happens now is largely irrelevant.
                          Incorrect. The agreed upon levels, set many years ago, call for 2% GNP defense spending. The Euro NATO nations just never bothered to do it, and now they have no choice not only to reach their promised 2% level, but to increase it to 4% which is the new level that Trump is demanding as their share.

                          And Germany, which is now a major dependent customer of Russia, can no longer justify any American presence in their country for "defense". In fact, since the dissolution of the USSR, Germany no longer shares a border with any communist nation.

                          I anticipate Trump moving the American presence into the former EastBloc nations like Poland.
                          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            What do you mean no choice? What trump says is not the gospel...
                            Wisdom is personal

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post

                              Of course it is, but the whole thing still looks so useless to me.
                              There is no threat to NATO anymore. I don't see how it would be possible for Russia to win against NATO countries even if you take the US out of the equation entirely. It just ain't gonna happen.

                              From that one factor, the entire premise for NATO falls apart.
                              Unless you can tell me WHY this thing still exists, everything else is meaningless.
                              Well, I'm no great fan of NATO, but there is an argument for having an alliance in place before things turn to sh*t.

                              Putin will not hold office forever, and the next guy could be a nutjob. If the muslim invasion of Europe turns hot, having forward bases there will be useful. Or if muslim factions achieve governmental control in a European state.

                              W e can pull out at any time. We can also move into eastern Europe, which I think would be a good idea.
                              Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post

                                Well, I'm no great fan of NATO, but there is an argument for having an alliance in place before things turn to sh*t.

                                Putin will not hold office forever, and the next guy could be a nutjob. If the muslim invasion of Europe turns hot, having forward bases there will be useful. Or if muslim factions achieve governmental control in a European state.

                                W e can pull out at any time. We can also move into eastern Europe, which I think would be a good idea.
                                Collective defense is still good today and in the future for everyone involved in NATO like the US which got support from everyone else in Afghanistan but everyone else in NATO today is definitely not contributing militarily what they should in case the worst ever happens.
                                A countries military should be prepared for someone else's capabilities not just their intent and most are relying on the US too much.

                                Comment

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