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  • Originally posted by Emtos View Post

    It was. The majority of the Axis were Germans who were on the defensive in the East. After Operation Crusader they and Italians were also on the defensive in Italy. US found itself in state of war but it didn't arrived somewhere.
    The majority of Axis in Russia. Not in the world. Check about China, especially the cilivian losses. Operation Crusader occured in 1941. Gazala in May/June 1942 and had been both an Axis offensive and a British defeat. Midway was also an Axis offensive as well the advance in Burma fully occupied by August 1942. By this date no Allied forces were in Italy. In Russia Operation Blau saw Germans advance some 400km at some points in Soviet territory. Hardly a defensive stance...

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    • The US was mobilizing a large Armed Force when it entered the war. There was no way it was going to enter European combat before it did. The US also had to send troops to the Pacific. Even the Red Army had to keep troops to face the Japanese in the Far East. The US Army needed a period of adjustment when it did enter combat. Not all the officers were capable of command and many were removed and some died. The Allies were fortunate that the US remained untouched as it produced vast amounts equipment and men to fight the war.

      While the Lend Lease aid sent to the USSR did not win the war, it allowed the Soviet workers to concentrate their efforts. Some of the aid like radios and communications cable was very welcome.

      Pruitt
      Last edited by Pruitt; 18 Jul 18, 20:53.
      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Metryll View Post

        The majority of Axis in Russia. Not in the world. Check about China, especially the cilivian losses. Operation Crusader occured in 1941. Gazala in May/June 1942 and had been both an Axis offensive and a British defeat. Midway was also an Axis offensive as well the advance in Burma fully occupied by August 1942. By this date no Allied forces were in Italy. In Russia Operation Blau saw Germans advance some 400km at some points in Soviet territory. Hardly a defensive stance...
        Majority of Axis divisions were in USSR. When US entered the war, they were on the defensive. When US arrived in Africa, they were on the defensive. Wehn US arrived in Europe, they were on the defensive. China, Midway and other Asian stuff are completely unimportant.
        There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

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        • the argument that "lend lease" saved the USSR does not really hold water if you spend a lot of time studying the stats, battles and the tactics of both sides. It improved the Soviet position, incrementally. The Germans/Axis weren't as strong as some think. Barbarossa was a wild gamble and the Wehr put in maximum effort to get as far as they did.

          Case Blue and the offensives to the Don and Stalingrad- a much weaker offensive- was also a maximum effort.

          Maximum effort as they attacked until well past culmination point and their units were bled white.

          This topic was discussed many times on "old school" ACG and I believe that the soviet side historian Dunn discusses it too.
          Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
          Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
          Barbarossa Derailed I & II
          Battle of Kalinin October 1941

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          • Soviet Russia engaged most of the German divisions and inflicted most of the German casualties, allowing the Western allies to have a reasonably tolerable campaign in Africa and the West. Western allies suffered very small casualties compared to Red Army.

            Soviet Russia also takes responsibility for helping provoke the war.

            The only way WW2 was possible the way it happened is because Moscow was guarding Nazi flank in the east, helping the Germans finish off Poland and then France. The Soviets also sent massive amounts of supplies and fuel to Hitler, to help him inflict maximum pain on Western democracies. Soviet economic aid to Germany killed thousands of Polish, French, British, Dutch, etc. soldiers. Petroleum is a military weapon, rubber for tires on Nazi tracks is a weapon. Soviet wheat sent to Germany is a weapon.

            I'm happy Hitler went to Soviet Russia with his divisions and taught those people in Moscow a lesson they remembered for the rest of their lives. Aggression on the Soviet aggressor. It was fair.
            Last edited by MonsterZero; 18 Jul 18, 21:55.

            "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
            --Frederick II, King of Prussia

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            • Originally posted by Emtos View Post
              "Withdrew" from the war doesn't mena "lost" the war. There was no capitulation, no surrender or any other similar action. US withdrew from Vietnam too.
              So that is what you mean by the term. Then you have to agree with the statement that Finland didn't lose either the Winter War (1939-40) or the Continuation War (1941-44) - it just withdrew from them. Assuming you are not using double standards that is. Your call - you can't have your cake and eat it too.
              Last edited by Vaeltaja; 18 Jul 18, 22:09.
              It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
                The Germans/Axis weren't as strong as some think. Barbarossa was a wild gamble and the Wehr put in maximum effort to get as far as they did.
                By mid-1942 the Germans/Axis had about equal the population of the rump Soviet Union but a much greater level of industry.
                Without the Anglo-Saxons the Soviet Union was doomed.

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                • This is what comes of having a president who knows nothing of the armed forces, foreign relations, treaties and alliances and foreign threats:

                  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...cid=spartandhp
                  We are not now that strength which in old days
                  Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                  Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                  To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                    So that is what you mean by the term. Then you have to agree with the statement that Finland didn't lose either the Winter War (1939-40) or the Continuation War (1941-44) - it just withdrew from them. Assuming you are not using double standards that is. Your call - you can't have your cake and eat it too.
                    It's nothing but semantics in order to confuse the issue as well as giving excuses for Russia.
                    We are not now that strength which in old days
                    Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                    Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                    To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                      So that is what you mean by the term. Then you have to agree with the statement that Finland didn't lose either the Winter War (1939-40) or the Continuation War (1941-44) - it just withdrew from them. Assuming you are not using double standards that is. Your call - you can't have your cake and eat it too.
                      Finland conserved his independence and a political regime so it cannot be called a strategical loss.
                      There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by MonsterZero View Post
                        Soviet Russia engaged most of the German divisions and inflicted most of the German casualties, allowing the Western allies to have a reasonably tolerable campaign in Africa and the West. Western allies suffered very small casualties compared to Red Army.

                        Soviet Russia also takes responsibility for helping provoke the war.

                        The only way WW2 was possible the way it happened is because Moscow was guarding Nazi flank in the east, helping the Germans finish off Poland and then France. The Soviets also sent massive amounts of supplies and fuel to Hitler, to help him inflict maximum pain on Western democracies. Soviet economic aid to Germany killed thousands of Polish, French, British, Dutch, etc. soldiers. Petroleum is a military weapon, rubber for tires on Nazi tracks is a weapon. Soviet wheat sent to Germany is a weapon.

                        I'm happy Hitler went to Soviet Russia with his divisions and taught those people in Moscow a lesson they remembered for the rest of their lives. Aggression on the Soviet aggressor. It was fair.
                        Lies. USSR wanted an alliance with France and Britain but those refused. Poland also didn't wanted to join the alliance with SU. USSR just washed his hands then and let Germany doing his job while having a profitable trade with. Nothing wrong on any account.
                        There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                          By mid-1942 the Germans/Axis had about equal the population of the rump Soviet Union but a much greater level of industry.
                          Without the Anglo-Saxons the Soviet Union was doomed.
                          By mid-1943 Axis was pushed back from Caucasus and Stalingrad without Anglo-Saxons in Europe and without important ammounts of aid from them. Doesn't looks like doom.
                          There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

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                          • Originally posted by Massena View Post

                            It's nothing but semantics in order to confuse the issue as well as giving excuses for Russia.
                            And still not proofs from you to backup your points...
                            There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Emtos View Post
                              USSR wanted an alliance with France and Britain but those refused. Poland also didn't wanted to join the alliance with SU. USSR just washed his hands then and let Germany doing his job while having a profitable trade with. Nothing wrong on any account.
                              Alliance offer was refused since USSR demanded a right to invade and occupy any of the neighboring states on the flimsiest of excuses - definition was so broad that action that could have displeased Moscow would have sufficed. USSR signing Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is quite a different story than your 'washed his hands' (i.e. standing neutral). USSR essentially enabled Germans to wage war against other European countries and even provided all the necessary supplies for the Nazis to do so. And this is even before we start taking the secret protocols of the M-R Pact into account. Division of Eastern Europe. Joint invasion of Poland. Joint victory parades. Purging of Polish - i.e. Allied - officers.
                              It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                              Comment


                              • There was no joint invasion of Poland. Soviets didn't told Germans about their actions. Poles were not allied with USSR. Since Britain and France didn't wanted to ally with USSR, it had no other choice but to sign the pact with Germany.
                                There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

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