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Trump rattles NATO, questioning its value, assailing Germany

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  • Trump rattles NATO, questioning its value, assailing Germany

    BRUSSELS (AP) — Under fire for his warm embrace of Russia’s Vladimir Putin, President Donald Trump jolted the NATO summit Wednesday by turning a spotlight on Germany’s ties to Russia and openly questioning the value of the military alliance that has defined American foreign policy for decades.

    Trump declared that a joint natural gas pipeline venture with Moscow has left Angela Merkel’s government “totally controlled” and “captive to Russia.” So, in a stroke, he shifted attention away from his own ties to the Kremlin just days before he meets one-on-one with Putin.

    With scorching language, the president questioned the necessity of the alliance that formed a bulwark against Soviet aggression, tweeting after a day of contentious meetings: “What good is NATO if Germany is paying Russia billions of dollars for gas and energy?”
    I am unsure if this is the best means of obtaining concessions, though perhaps the rhino in the China shop approach to hardball politics is just what is needed... though I'm not as sure as to what the goals are.
    BRUSSELS (AP) — Under fire for his warm embrace of Russia's Vladimir Putin, President Donald Trump jolted the NATO summit Wednesday by turning a spotlight on Germany's ties to Rus

  • #2
    Perhaps Mr Trump forgot about the deaths of 57 German servicemen in Afghanistan: a conflict originally brought about by an attack on the USA.
    And, after all, Germany has to secure its energy requirements from somewhere.
    "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
    Samuel Johnson.

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    • #3
      We need out of NATO. It would save billions, and force the Europeans to deal with their own problems.
      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
        Perhaps Mr Trump forgot about the deaths of 57 German servicemen in Afghanistan: a conflict originally brought about by an attack on the USA.
        And, after all, Germany has to secure its energy requirements from somewhere.
        Not only Trump has forgotten, most German people if you ask them on the street don't even know about much about Afghanistan, never mind 57 dead Bundeswehr soldiers. They don't even want to talk about it, you might say, "they live in blissful ignorance.
        If Merkel would follow Trumps advice, it would be the end of her political courier. Any raise in upping defense spending would be an extremely hard sell.
        And it does make sense: Russia is spending just $68 billion , China just $119 billion. Those are the declared enemies according to the Pentagon. Europeans view those 2 powers as just "alleged" enemies, and the majority does not really believe they are enemies. On the other hand the US spends almost $700 billion and the Europeans $ 264 billion. So that is 5 times more than Russia and China spend. Don't you see how crazy and insane that looks ?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
          We need out of NATO. It would save billions, and force the Europeans to deal with their own problems.
          Or form a different kind of alliance with Eastern Europe countries. They are modernizing their armed forces and taking Russia threat quite seriously. No more NATO, just change to BSDO - Baltic States Defense Organization. This way we could develop a closer relationship with these countries and without Germany or France balking at the insistence of supporting Ukraine in its fight against Russia, we could be more aggressive in our stance toward Russia.

          I don't think we can completely get out of Europe not with the current reality on ground. Russia isn't a communist country anymore, but we shouldn't mistake her for a friend either.
          Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

          "Aim small, miss small."

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Cheetah772 View Post

            Or form a different kind of alliance with Eastern Europe countries. They are modernizing their armed forces and taking Russia threat quite seriously. No more NATO, just change to BSDO - Baltic States Defense Organization. This way we could develop a closer relationship with these countries and without Germany or France balking at the insistence of supporting Ukraine in its fight against Russia, we could be more aggressive in our stance toward Russia.

            I don't think we can completely get out of Europe not with the current reality on ground. Russia isn't a communist country anymore, but we shouldn't mistake her for a friend either.
            A valid point.

            I'm afraid the western Europeans will hide behind the bulwark of eastern Europe, though, and continue to refuse to carry their weight.
            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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            • #7
              Lol, complaining about wasting money and at the same time finding new ways to waste money(as long as someone tells you thanks). You know there are easier ways out of Europe than marching through Russia?

              Are you unable to read a map or is the truth that you do not actually wanna leave?
              You can have as much bias as yo are prepared to pay for.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                I'm afraid the western Europeans will hide behind the bulwark of eastern Europe, though, and continue to refuse to carry their weight.
                It worked against the Huns and the Mongols - I'm sure it will work against the modern Russians as well,
                something to consider for your own Southern border too, a living wall if you will
                High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
                Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

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                • #9

                  "Donald Trump says other members of NATO are stepping up their spending in order to share the burden or spending on the organisation more evenly.
                  He says he has secured spending commitments from other NATO members and adds that the US is committed to NATO in future
                  President Trump has used the press conference to announce he has managed to get NATO countries to increase spending by £33bn.
                  He said the agreement means NATO is now "much stronger".
                  Mr Trump insisted Nato leaders were now "putting up a lot" and it was "unnecessary" to pull the US out of the organisation.
                  He said Germany had agreed to increase "very substantially" the timescale for increasing funding.
                  "The people have stepped up today like they have never stepped up before," he said.
                  Mr Trump said everybody in the room had thanked him, including secretary general Jens Stoltenberg, and described himself as a "very stable genius".


                  Looks like the Trump was successful!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                    "Donald Trump says other members of NATO are stepping up their spending in order to share the burden or spending on the organisation more evenly.
                    He says he has secured spending commitments from other NATO members and adds that the US is committed to NATO in future
                    President Trump has used the press conference to announce he has managed to get NATO countries to increase spending by £33bn.
                    He said the agreement means NATO is now "much stronger".
                    Mr Trump insisted Nato leaders were now "putting up a lot" and it was "unnecessary" to pull the US out of the organisation.
                    He said Germany had agreed to increase "very substantially" the timescale for increasing funding.
                    "The people have stepped up today like they have never stepped up before," he said.
                    Mr Trump said everybody in the room had thanked him, including secretary general Jens Stoltenberg, and described himself as a "very stable genius".


                    Looks like the Trump was successful!


                    He does well. It's good to shake things up a bit.
                    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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                    • #11
                      Nope - not really. Despite of plenty of huffing and puffing from the Twittler in Chief it is the exact same situation that it was prior to the meeting:

                      (NATO Secretery General) Stoltenberg confirms NATO commitment to spending 2 percent of GDP on defense

                      Even more importantly there are no changes to any of the actual clauses in sight. Which means that member states still have their pre-Trump era goals of reaching 2% 'guideline' value by 2024 - or not reduce the defense spending any more if it is below 2%.
                      It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

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                      • #12
                        It's easy to win if you're Trump. All you do is declare status quo a victory on twitter. And then the Faithful all chime in.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                          "Donald Trump says other members of NATO are stepping up their spending in order to share the burden or spending on the organisation more evenly.
                          He says he has secured spending commitments from other NATO members and adds that the US is committed to NATO in future
                          President Trump has used the press conference to announce he has managed to get NATO countries to increase spending by £33bn.
                          He said the agreement means NATO is now "much stronger".
                          Mr Trump insisted Nato leaders were now "putting up a lot" and it was "unnecessary" to pull the US out of the organisation.
                          He said Germany had agreed to increase "very substantially" the timescale for increasing funding.
                          "The people have stepped up today like they have never stepped up before," he said.
                          Mr Trump said everybody in the room had thanked him, including secretary general Jens Stoltenberg, and described himself as a "very stable genius".


                          Looks like the Trump was successful!
                          Thats funny...I checked with my ami's here in France and Mein Kameradin in Germany and they didnt recall Mr Trump babbling about how well he had done at the Nato meeting.......but then again he has a good imagination.....has to make himself look good before meeting his pal Vlad later in the week.

                          Toulon France

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                            Nope - not really. Despite of plenty of huffing and puffing from the Twittler in Chief it is the exact same situation that it was prior to the meeting:
                            Jens Stoltenberg:
                            "
                            We have had a very good summit.
                            Over the past two days, we have taken major decisions to strengthen NATO’s deterrence and defence.
                            To step up in the fight against terrorism.
                            And to ensure fair burden-sharing among all Allies.

                            I told you earlier this week that I expected frank discussions on burden-sharing.
                            And that’s exactly what we had.

                            That is what we do among friends and Allies.

                            All Allies have heard President Trump’s message loud and clear.
                            We understand that this American president is very serious about defence spending.
                            And this is having a clear impact.

                            After years of decline, when Allies were cutting billions,
                            now they are adding billions.
                            Before, the trend was down.
                            Now, the trend is up.
                            In fact, since President Trump took office, European Allies and Canada have added an additional 41 billion dollars to their defence spending.

                            And all Allies have committed to raise this number substantially.
                            So we are stepping up as never before.

                            Allowing US spending to go down.

                            There is a new sense of urgency due to President Trump’s strong leadership on defence spending.

                            Today, all Allies agreed to redouble their efforts.
                            And this will make NATO stronger.

                            All Allies are committed to NATO.
                            And that was very clear from all the 29 leaders around the table today."
                            https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_156738.htm

                            member states still have their pre-Trump era goals of reaching 2% 'guideline' value by 2024 - or not reduce the defense spending any more if it is below 2%
                            I am pretty sure not reducing defence spending any more if its below 2% is not a NATO guideline. Or at least not anymore.

                            Still it does remain to be seen how trustworthy the Europeans are.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                              I am pretty sure not reducing defence spending any more if its below 2% is not a NATO guideline. Or at least not anymore.
                              From NATO's site:
                              Originally posted by NATO, Wales summit 2014
                              • Allies currently meeting the 2% guideline on defence spending will aim to continue to do so;
                              • Allies whose current proportion of GDP spent on defence is below this level will: halt any decline; aim to increase defence expenditure in real terms as GDP grows; and aim to move towards the 2% guideline within a decade with a view to meeting their NATO Capability Targets and filling NATO’s capability shortfalls.
                              Only requirement is that 'halt any decline' exactly - the rest like 'aim to increase' or 'aim move towards' are not requirements or demands but instead hopeful wishes as there is no requirement to actually reach that 2% mark.
                              Still it does remain to be seen how trustworthy the Europeans are.
                              Europeans pledged to abide by the above agreement reached among NATO member states. And that is what they will do. It however won't be the same what Trump clearly imagines it as being.
                              It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

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