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Ireland to drop 8th ammendment

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  • #16
    PS1982--I don't know how much of the celebrating was due to the fact that abortion was now legal and how much was just rejoicing that the Church had lost its stifling power.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Emtos View Post
      There is no lives if they aren't born. Nor the word "innocent" has any meaning.
      But there is a curious parallel here;
      Most of the same people that support Abortion are also opposed to the Death Penalty for murderous fiends who are proud of being the very worst sort.

      That is a strange thing, arguing to preserve the most monstrous among us, while at the same time doing your best to make it free & easy to eliminate the only truly innocent life among us.
      If that isn't Evil, I don't know what is... but it certainly is a contradictory position to have, isn't it?
      "Why is the Rum gone?"

      -Captain Jack

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Karri View Post

        The concept of soul is pseudoscience, or philosophy at best.
        Was I arguing about souls?

        Last I checked I was arguing about awareness.

        Infants in the third trimester have been observed sucking their thumbs. We know that such an action isn't reflexive. Infants and small children do this for comfort. And when it happens it demonstrates a solid level of awareness of one's body and surroundings as well as rudimentary problem solving.

        1. Baby/child feels anxiety.
        2. Baby/child knows thumb sucking provides relief of anxiety.
        3. Baby/child sucks thumb.

        Knowledge of need and how to address the need. That's a thinking, living brain. And that's why I don't yield on 3rd trimester abortion. I'll give you first trimester, though I would prefer birth control and honestly contraceptives is a better option for dealing with unwanted pregnancy. But by trimester three it is scientifically undeniable that there is a living, breathing, and even thinking person in there.
        A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post

          But there is a curious parallel here;
          Most of the same people that support Abortion are also opposed to the Death Penalty for murderous fiends who are proud of being the very worst sort.

          That is a strange thing, arguing to preserve the most monstrous among us, while at the same time doing your best to make it free & easy to eliminate the only truly innocent life among us.
          If that isn't Evil, I don't know what is... but it certainly is a contradictory position to have, isn't it?
          Death penalty can lead to an error which cannot be repaired. Plenty of such cases. We cannot allow ourselves to make such errors. Abortion on the other doesn't kill someone with a formed personality.
          There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

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          • #20
            A referendum on the death penalty, with similar restrictions, would lead to much the same result I suspect.

            If you let people vote on the death of others, they rarely disappoint.


            One serious difference though - death penalty is implemented by the state, abortion is an individual decision.

            You "small government" types over there should appreciate the the difference.
            High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

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            • #21

              I voted Yes to remove the 8th amendment.
              Like most people I was in the middle on the issue, seeing points for and against on both sides.
              Abortion is never a good thing but it may be the least worst option and I don't think the Constitution is the place to have this. We live in a representative democracy so we should trust our legislators to legislate.

              The influence of the RC Church and their significance in relation to this issue is overplayed. They lost any real influence about 20 years ago. They still have influence in the schools but it's superficial; people like the pomp of First Communions and all that stuff but most of the kids won't see the inside of a Church again until they make their confirmation and then it will be weddings and funerals.

              I think most of the people who voted No did so on moral grounds, not religious ones. Branding them knuckle-draggers, brainwashed by the Church, or misogynists is offensive and inaccurate.

              The argument which was made by the repeal side that women's lives were at risk because of the 8th amendment was inaccurate; if they were at risk as all it was because of a failure to legislate around the 8th amendment under which an abortion could be carried out if the woman's life was at risk.


              The triumphalist celebrations afterwards were in bad. So much of this became about identity politics rather than abortion that those celebrations were not surprising. Unfortunately many in the liberal establishment don't understand that a cornerstone of being a liberal is free speech and their vociferous silencing of those who hold conservative views is deeply concerning. I say that as a secularist liberal.

              On to the issue of when life begins; We need to distinguish between life and human life. Between 12 and 116 weeks the cerebral cortex develops and brain activity which can be broadly identified as human begins. Therefore for me that's when the thing inside the women becomes a Baby.

              A Repeal campaigner called to my door last week. I asked her if she agreed that if my daughter came home at 17 and said she was pregnant she should have the right to decide if she became a mother of not. The campaigner agreed that my daughter should have that right. I then asked her if my 17 year old son should also have the right to decide if he became a parent. I reminded her that a woman is pregnant for 9 months but both parties will be parents for the rest of their lives so parenthood, not pregnancy, is the issue. The role and rights of the father hadnít even occurred to her. That speaks volumes to me about how tied up this issue is with identity politics (feminism, liberalism, secularism etc.).

              The thing is that it's too important and emotive an issue to be hijacked like that.
              "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
              validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
              "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                A referendum on the death penalty, with similar restrictions, would lead to much the same result I suspect.

                If you let people vote on the death of others, they rarely disappoint.
                I think it is hard to gauge this...though I am in favor of allow the people a referendum on the subject. The question is - would such a referendum be allowed in the first place?


                Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                One serious difference though - death penalty is implemented by the state, abortion is an individual decision.

                You "small government" types over there should appreciate the the difference.
                No, this has nothing to do with "small government"....because the woman's individual decision has as it's consequence a bill which is paid for by the taxpayers. I think you would find much less opposition to the abortion industry if the individual was obligated to pay for the procedure, something I myself am very much in favor of. Besides, if what we are told by the medias is true.....that most people overwhelmingly accept a woman's "right to choose"...then I would suspect that they would in turn gladly donate their own funds to the cause, and leave government funding out of it altogether. I should not be obligated to help pay for a procedure which I find personally abhorrent, than any other taxpayer should be asked to help pay for my NRA membership.

                IMO - that would be the ideal solution to satisfy both sides.
                You'll live, only the best get killed.

                -General Charles de Gaulle

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                • #23
                  Women are taxpayers so they play their part. Also unwanted kids can became trouble in the future and it will cost more to society than make an abortion.
                  There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by asterix View Post

                    I think it is hard to gauge this...though I am in favor of allow the people a referendum on the subject. The question is - would such a referendum be allowed in the first place ?
                    Not really, even a simple enquete from a rather mainstream paper easily found a narrow majority here in Flanders, dress that up a bit with restriction comparable to the "12-week limit" (Terrorists, and sex offenders, for instance) and you'll easily win any referendum.




                    No, this has nothing to do with "small government"....because the woman's individual decision has as it's consequence a bill which is paid for by the taxpayers.
                    What nonsense - abortions cost exactly nothing (2,9 euro to pay for the patient, 400 euro total apparently) compared to all other silly things we spend tax money on.

                    should not be obligated to help pay for a procedure which I find personally abhorrent
                    IF you want to let people choose on what (not) to spend their taxes, that goes for everything, not just abortions.

                    Nothing will ever get done, though.


                    I find people with six children and no money abhorrent, I still have to pay for them.




                    My point was in regard to decision making - in case of abortion private individuals decide over life (and death) they created, none of my business.

                    That's not so in case of the death penalty, which may affect me or people I know, without having a say in the matter.

                    One is a choice - the other is not.

                    Not that it would necessarily mean I oppose the death penalty under all circumstances, but legal limitations are needed imho, as with abortion.
                    Last edited by Snowygerry; 28 May 18, 08:31.
                    High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by asterix View Post


                      . I should not be obligated to help pay for a procedure which I find personally abhorrent, than any other taxpayer should be asked to help pay for my NRA membership.

                      Using that argument it would be possible for any citizen to withhold paying their taxes that funded something with which they had a moral objection, for example nuclear weapons or a operations in a particular conflict etc etc. Would you allow vegans to withold tax payments because they didn't want to fund a state vetinary service for example? There are always some people who will have a moral objection to some process or other. That way lies anarchy.,
                      Last edited by MarkV; 28 May 18, 08:10.
                      Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                      Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                      • #26
                        Simply allow them to tick a box on their tax declaration,

                        "I don't want my tax money to be spent on the following..."

                        It won't make a difference, but might make them feel better.
                        High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post

                          Was I arguing about souls?

                          Last I checked I was arguing about awareness.

                          Infants in the third trimester have been observed sucking their thumbs. We know that such an action isn't reflexive. Infants and small children do this for comfort. And when it happens it demonstrates a solid level of awareness of one's body and surroundings as well as rudimentary problem solving.

                          1. Baby/child feels anxiety.
                          2. Baby/child knows thumb sucking provides relief of anxiety.
                          3. Baby/child sucks thumb.

                          Knowledge of need and how to address the need. That's a thinking, living brain. And that's why I don't yield on 3rd trimester abortion. I'll give you first trimester, though I would prefer birth control and honestly contraceptives is a better option for dealing with unwanted pregnancy. But by trimester three it is scientifically undeniable that there is a living, breathing, and even thinking person in there.
                          I think you are talking about souls when you talk about awareness. Otherwise, your scientific point of view makes little sense or at least lacks a point of view. Not mention that since you "yielded" the first semester we don't really have a difference in opinion.

                          Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post

                          But there is a curious parallel here;
                          Most of the same people that support Abortion are also opposed to the Death Penalty for murderous fiends who are proud of being the very worst sort.

                          That is a strange thing, arguing to preserve the most monstrous among us, while at the same time doing your best to make it free & easy to eliminate the only truly innocent life among us.
                          If that isn't Evil, I don't know what is... but it certainly is a contradictory position to have, isn't it?
                          I am sure most people are opposed to murder, yet all nations employ an army whose mission it is to do a lot of murdering if need be. Abortion and death penalty are two different things. In the core of the abortion discussion is whether the fetus is a being or just a lump of flesh(or rather when it becomes more than a collection of cells). When it comes to the death penalty the question is about government power. And like already posted: it's funny that usually anti-government people would give government this ultimate power. But these are the kind of decisions we make to mold the world in our view.


                          Last edited by Karri; 28 May 18, 09:09.
                          Wisdom is personal

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                          • #28
                            Not mention that since you "yielded" the first semester we don't really have a difference in opinion.
                            12 weeks is the limit here as well, as I understand it the Irish proposal will follow a similar line.
                            High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

                              12 weeks is the limit here as well, as I understand it the Irish proposal will follow a similar line.
                              12 weeks on-demand. Up to 24 weeks in more restricted circumstances.
                              "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                              validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                              "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

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                              • #30
                                I notice in all these tweeks very few members mention the womans right to choose........never mind girls you are just required to lay back and enjoy it...in the mean time all the macho males will parade around struting their manly stuff........

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