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  • Yes - well most historians who actually studied the issue, see that differently,

    and imho they make a more convincing case

    Edit,

    The most obvious evidence is obviously that Flemish cities allied themselves with the Count of Flanders, the French King, the English one (which was sometimes the same), the German emperor, or other Flemish cities as it suited them.

    Indeed the city state of Ghent (at the time the most powerful one) was not above repressing nearby independent cities, who in turn then allied with said kings to regain there independence.

    "Follow the money" works in Medieval times, just like it does now.

    And that ties in to Brexit,

    it will cut into to the profit of your "entrepreneurs", which is why the domestic opposition to it will eventually overcome the outcome of the referendum imho.

    We can see that happening already - Brexit as the British government is implementing it now, will be arranged in such a manner nobody here will have noticed it happened, while still convincing the British electorate is was something of significance.
    Last edited by Snowygerry; 18 May 18, 07:57.
    High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
    Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
      The most obvious evidence is obviously that Flemish cities allied themselves with the Count of Flanders, the French King, the English one (which was sometimes the same), the German emperor, or other Flemish cities as it suited them.

      Indeed the city state of Ghent (at the time the most powerful one) was not above repressing nearby independent cities, who in turn then allied with said kings to regain there independence.

      "Follow the money" works in Medieval times, just like it does now.
      Money and independence are not necessarily the same thing.

      Comment


      • In mediëval terms, being "independent" meant levying taxes.

        A common agreement between a king and a city would be for example for the king to not attack a city (a difficult and costly thing to do at any rate) while the city provides a number of troops or the equivalent in value.

        Losing your "independence" meant the king levied is taxes directly, but most often meant the city lost most of his income as trade shifted to other cities.

        So we see Amsterdam for example taking the place of Antwerp after the Spanish sacked it (and the English and Dutch blockaded it).

        A king could take a city - but the money did not always follow the King's whishes
        High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
        Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
          A king could take a city - but the money did not always follow the King's whishes
          Quite a parochial (not to say barmy) view to assume that a King or Prince or Republic conquered only for money. Wars usually cost Medieval rulers far more money than they could hope to recoup.
          What was Edward I financial gain from the conquest of Wales fer instance?

          I think you have overstretched a tenuous analogy.

          Comment


          • What was Edward I financial gain from the conquest of Wales fer instance ?
            I assume that once he conquered it, he could tax it, and drew income from it, while before he couldn't ?

            Although I know next to nothing about Wales I must admit.

            Note my point here is not necessarily that all Kings were in it for the money, no doubt they had other, more lofty motives,

            but by necessity events followed the money, not the will of the King.
            High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
            Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

            Comment


            • As regards tax in Wales I believe all those castles built by Edward I would have been paid for by about, ooh, 1730?

              Note my point here is not necessarily that all Kings were in it for the money, no doubt they had other, more lofty motives,
              Not sure if Power and Prestige can be described as more lofty.
              The desire to grow is inherent in all organisations. It happens even when the growth is not in the interests of the original inhabitants/investors etc and can make the organisation overall weaker or poorer - see the EU and NATO

              Reducing it to merely about money (although we all wish our amount of that to grow) misses the point.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                As regards tax in Wales I believe all those castles built by Edward I would have been paid for by about, ooh, 1730.
                If it works in Wales like it did here it goes as follows,

                You conquer the land and kill the owners, you replace them with new owners loyal to you, whom you grant the right to build a castle (or keep an old one) and the right to tax the locals.

                In return you require a percentage of those taxes, or alternatively, to supply you with troops or show up as knights (maybe bowmen in the case of the English) to fight for you.

                With that income you conquer new lands.

                That's in a nutshell the feudal system.
                High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
                Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                  Meh, we can repeal anything we like after the two years are up.


                  I'm a bit puzzled why some Continentals think antagonizing us is a good idea
                  Because its worked. Brexit won't happen in actuality.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

                    I assume that once he conquered it, he could tax it, and drew income from it, while before he couldn't ?

                    Although I know next to nothing about Wales I must admit.

                    Note my point here is not necessarily that all Kings were in it for the money, no doubt they had other, more lofty motives,

                    but by necessity events followed the money, not the will of the King.
                    \it was the old frontier problem. If you have a settled frontier next to a less prosperous and /or less well governed territory then you get raids. You move the frontier and the land newly brought under your control prospers and in turn gets raided and the process continues. . With Wales it was simplest for England to just take over the lot in one go.
                    Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                    Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                    • "You can check out anytime you like but you can never leave."

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                      • Will the warnings from Airbus about their plans to stop investing in the UK and slowly move out in the case of a hard Brexit wake any of the Little-Englanders up? 14,000 highly paid jobs with another 100,000 in the UK supply chain at risk.
                        The UK car industry will face the same issues. Remember that they are not UK manufacturers, they are Japanese companies who build cars in the UK. They do so in order to access the biggest consumer market in the world. No market access = no manufacturing... of course once the UK has all those new trade deals with Brazil and China they will buy the Japanese cars built in the UK, right?
                        "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                        validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                        "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                          Will the warnings from Airbus about their plans to stop investing in the UK and slowly move out in the case of a hard Brexit wake any of the Little-Englanders up? 14,000 highly paid jobs with another 100,000 in the UK supply chain at risk.
                          The UK car industry will face the same issues. Remember that they are not UK manufacturers, they are Japanese companies who build cars in the UK. They do so in order to access the biggest consumer market in the world. No market access = no manufacturing... of course once the UK has all those new trade deals with Brazil and China they will buy the Japanese cars built in the UK, right?
                          I bet Boeing would be more than happy to move in. The UK car industry is owned primarily by US and Japanese companies so this will have little effect there. The Japanese and US aren't there to "access the biggest consumer market in the world." They're there to supply Europe. They have factories in the US to supply the biggest consumer market in the world, and the second biggest is Asia / China.

                          I could imagine an Airbus that's French / German only trying to compete with Boeing who is now manufacturing in the UK and selling to the Commonwealth nations in trade deals that the French and Germans are cut out of. That would likely lead to more nations deciding to dump Airbus as too expensive and unreliable a supplier.

                          Cutting market access to continental Europe by the EU against the UK would be cutting their nose off to spite their face.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                            I bet Boeing would be more than happy to move in. The UK car industry is owned primarily by US and Japanese companies so this will have little effect there. The Japanese and US aren't there to "access the biggest consumer market in the world." They're there to supply Europe. They have factories in the US to supply the biggest consumer market in the world, and the second biggest is Asia / China.

                            I could imagine an Airbus that's French / German only trying to compete with Boeing who is now manufacturing in the UK and selling to the Commonwealth nations in trade deals that the French and Germans are cut out of. That would likely lead to more nations deciding to dump Airbus as too expensive and unreliable a supplier.

                            Cutting market access to continental Europe by the EU against the UK would be cutting their nose off to spite their face.
                            The EU, as a single market, is the biggest economy, the biggest trading block and the biggest market in the world.

                            Im not going to get into the details of what is quite frankly a very naive post by you. I would suggest that you read the reports from UK industry groups such as ADS and The House of Commons Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS) Committee's report on Brexit and UK car industry and take on board their comments.

                            "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                            validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                            "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                              The EU, as a single market, is the biggest economy, the biggest trading block and the biggest market in the world.

                              Im not going to get into the details of what is quite frankly a very naive post by you. I would suggest that you read the reports from UK industry groups such as ADS and The House of Commons Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS) Committee's report on Brexit and UK car industry and take on board their comments.
                              In terms of countries in it. It's second behind the US in terms of money involved. That's what counts.

                              The EU is the world’s largest trading bloc, and second largest economy, after the USA. In 2014 the value of the EU's output totalled $18.5 trillion*. The five largest Economies, Germany, France, the United Kingdom, Italy and Spain, account for around 70% of the 28-country trading bloc.

                              http://www.economicsonline.co.uk/Glo...cs/The_EU.html

                              With the UK out, that leaves just Germany, France, and Italy (Spain is a distant fourth), in the bloc so it loses even more economic clout.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                                I bet Boeing would be more than happy to move in.
                                Instead of creating jobs in the USA?
                                Reaction to the 2016 Munich shootings:
                                Europe: "We are shocked and support you in these harsh times, we stand by you."
                                USA: "We will check people from Germany extra-hard and it is your own damn fault for being so stupid."

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