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Catalonia.

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  • Originally posted by the ace View Post
    I've noticed that nobody seems to be talking about this one, and I'm a bit curious as to how others are seeing the Independence referendum in Catalonia.

    My stance will be pretty obvious to most who know me, but I'm an outsider in this matter, and all I see are people refusing to discuss the issue.
    I do not see anything good coming out of the Catalan "independence" movement and I only see greed as motivation.
    Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

    Initiated Chief Petty Officer
    Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!

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    • Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
      The idea of the nation state dies hard - especially when thinks like a cultural or ethnic identity are decried as fake or demonized by one or both sides. People are still addicted to the idea of preserving lines on a map.
      One of the problems is that many of the borders in Europe were made by aristocrats that behaved like regions were their personal real estate. Belgium has a French section and a Flemish section, Switzerland has three cantons (German, French and Italian), the Corsicans are ethnically and culturally Italian, you get the picture.
      Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

      Initiated Chief Petty Officer
      Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
        One of the problems is that many of the borders in Europe were made by aristocrats that behaved like regions were their personal real estate. Belgium has a French section and a Flemish section, Switzerland has three cantons (German, French and Italian), the Corsicans are ethnically and culturally Italian, you get the picture.
        No as these are all based on old old ethnic divides not aristocratic whims. BTW the Corsicans were for a short time BRITISH at their own request! (The Corsican Rangers served in Egypt under the British army in 1801). This arrangement was back dated so that technically speaking Napoleon was British!

        BTW Switzerland has a lot more than 3 Cantons and Belgium is not that neatly divided up. You could get your throat cut in Corsica defining them as Italian - they were under Genoese domination for a long time but never liked it - read some real history.
        Last edited by MarkV; 04 Oct 17, 13:37.
        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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        • Post deleted for proscribed personal comment - ACG staff
          Last edited by Skoblin; 04 Oct 17, 23:20.
          "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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          • Originally posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
            I do not see anything good coming out of the Catalan "independence" movement and I only see greed as motivation.
            A more fragmented Europe (not a completely accurate map, there's possibility for more fragmentation in some parts):

            Comment


            • Catalan leader faults Spanish King for failing to ease independence crisis

              (CNN)Catalonia's leader has launched a strongly worded attack on the King of Spain for failing to heal the country's divisions after a bitterly contested independence referendum.

              In a TV address from the headquarters of the Catalan government in Barcelona on Wednesday, Catalan President Carles Puigdemont said King Felipe had missed an opportunity to mediate in the political and constitutional crisis that has engulfed the country.

              The King delivered a stern warning in a TV address on Tuesday, saying Catalan leaders had acted "outside the law" and accusing them of "unacceptable disloyalty" for pressing ahead with their moves toward secession.. Catalonia is an autonomous region of Spain, located in the northeastern part of the country.

              Puigdemont said the Spanish monarch "ignores millions of Catalans who think in a different way" to the central government of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy.
              http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/04/europe...sis/index.html

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              • I am a huge fan of your lifestyle , go regularly in Spain , and has spent about a month in Barcelona.
                The expression of the Catalonian pride is so visible that you feel like in another country inside Spain.
                This makes me very skeptical for the weeks to come .
                That rug really tied the room together

                Comment


                • Originally posted by sebfrench76 View Post
                  I am a huge fan of your lifestyle , go regularly in Spain , and has spent about a month in Barcelona.
                  The expression of the Catalonian pride is so visible that you feel like in another country inside Spain.
                  This makes me very skeptical for the weeks to come .
                  What is worse from a Madrid viewpoint is that a heavy-handed reaction is likely to provoke anti-independence or fence-sitting Catalans into supporting independence.

                  Yet at the same time, even with the EU backing Madrid, they cannot just sit back and allow Catalan to declare de facto independence either. Giving Barcelona free reign to declare themselves independent is just asking for them to, well... become independent.

                  So how does Spain respond? Sure, we have some who want to see the Catalans punished for their evil desires for self-rule, but beyond another "send in the military!" approach, Spain's more realistic (and less bloody) options are fairly limited.

                  Barcelona has already thrown down the gauntlet. They've promised to seek independence on Monday. Madrid either has to take emergency steps and engage in arrests to lock those up who ran the election - which was illegal, though that doesn't mean much to those who want to leave - or they have to make some major concessions or good-faith negotiations to try and appease the Catalans. Maybe some sweeping, federalization changes to the Spanish state (the United States of Espana )?

                  Because I'm not sure I see other options beyond variations on those. At this point it is carrot or stick time, and the carrot has to be mighty tasty indeed if it's going to get that horse back in that particular barn.

                  Comment


                  • Sovereignty and self-determination collide in Catalonia

                    Most of today’s nations emerged from the dissolution of empires. Nationalisms now threaten the dissolution of states. The independence movement in Catalonia represents a collision between what looks like a reasonable demand for national self-determination and the fact of Spanish state sovereignty. Convenient though it would be to pretend otherwise, there is right on both sides.

                    One dangerous commonplace — perhaps the biggest single threat to democratic institutions — is the rising belief that such disputes can be settled by a simple popular vote. If a majority of Catalans, or any other national group for that matter, back independence in a referendum the popular will must prevail. Plebiscites are thus elevated as the purest form of democracy.

                    History records they are more often a route to authoritarianism — a device of demagogues and dictators as Britain’s Margaret Thatcher once put it. Liberty rests on the rule of law, democracy on safeguards for minorities. States cannot be forever at the mercy of fragmentation. These are not things to be overturned by popular whim.

                    That is why we have constitutions, written or unwritten, to enshrine basic freedoms in a contract between citizen and state. And that is why embedded in such constitutions are rules for amendment that demand more than 50 per cent plus one at a single point in time. There are good reasons for the German federal republic’s disavowal of national referendums.
                    https://www.ft.com/content/47672d08-...5-27219df83c97

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                    • The question is not if Catalonia is right or wrong, but if Catalonia will succeed or fail .

                      If it succeedes and the results are bad, they will have only themselves to blame . And if they will ring at my door and beg for money , I will order my dog to attack them .

                      Every one must accept the responsibilities for his acts .This is something this generation has forgotten .Liberty implies responsibility .

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                      • Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                        Because I'm not sure I see other options beyond variations on those. At this point it is carrot or stick time, and the carrot has to be mighty tasty indeed if it's going to get that horse back in that particular barn.
                        Well, Mr Puigdemont is married to a Romanian, maybe we can find a polonium solution to this problem? /jk

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
                          I do not see anything good coming out of the Catalan "independence" movement and I only see greed as motivation.
                          Give that man a cigar (or a drink if you do not smoke). The answer as usually is, is to follow the money.

                          This whole seccesion plot is just really a smokescreen. The main reason for all this is that the Catalonian political chaste has been running a protection racket for 30 years.

                          Jordi Pujol, the Catalonian government president and for all practical purposes a dictator for decades is under trial for corruption and his whole family. He is the Godfather of Catalonia, not just he and his personal circle, but a very big circle of the Catalonian political and business oligarchy.

                          The trigger is the end of bank secrecy in Andorra, a minuscule city state between France and Spain, a fiscal paradise and money laundering den like Monaco or Liechtenstein. Nearly all the Catalan corrupt elite had their ill gotten money there. The European Union is cracking hard on these places, and with the end of bank secrecy, everybody has to face a reckoning with the Spanish revenue service wich would result in confiscation of fortunes if not prison sentences for corruption, fraud and tax evasion, or bring their money elsewhere.


                          Catalonia government is bankrupt and leads a hand to mouth existence. The government is rescued by the central government and is debt is sustained with the money of all Spaniards. There's nothing left to steal in Catalonia. All the opportunities to thrive on corruption parasiting public funds are gone anymore. As soon as Germany tightens the screws, the Spanish state will inevitably have to take control of autonomus regional governments and enforce further spending cuts and start cleaning corruption at the regional and local level.


                          The Catalan government has been forced to slash the social services wich has been proven veyr unpopular as the cuts have been harsher than in other parts of Spain, the politicos preserving their clientelear networks of public enterprises and bureaucracy paper jobs at the expense of welfare and health care. The discontent that this has provoked is vented directing the wrath of the mass against Madrid and Spain, when all the blame lies on the local oligarchy and politicos. In nazi Germany they blamed the Jews as scapegoats, same here, but change with the Spanish and the non-nationalist Catalans.

                          Let me remind you that after the deppression that began in 2008 hit hard, the discontent led to mobs and street protests not only in Madrid, but specially serious against the Catalan parliament, wich was besieged by the mobs, and the politicos had to get out of there by helicopter. When things reach that point, it's not far away ending up like Ceaucescu. That's why they are manipulating the most stupid and unthinking and violent prone sector of population, namely the radical Catalan separatists, into a clash with Spain,





                          The fanatics of the leftist separatists are just useful fools that actually believe their own propaganda. Puigdemont and the rest of the freaks that are running the mental asylum are just pawns. When the state is forced to use the army to abort secession and arrest the rebels, the true ringleaders will flee to a comfortable exile as political refugees, escaping the Spanish justice.


                          The puppeteers behind this show have started all this because they are going to jail all of them and lose their fortunes as the Spanish justice starts purging them. Pujol and the rest were untouchable for decades in their own personal fiefdom. The reckoning is coming.


                          PS The flight of deposits from Sabadell bank, the bank I have the mortgage with, and from wich I withdrew my savings yesterday, has reached such proportions that the shareholding council in a panic announced that the Sabadell is moving its headquarters to Madrid in an effort to calm customers and investors. Too little too late, in my opinion. Will not assuage afraid people, and a lot of Spanish customers are furious with these banks financing the Catalan separatists and being part of the Catalan corrupt oligarchy.
                          Last edited by von Junzt; 05 Oct 17, 05:28.
                          CANNON, n.
                          An instrument employed in the rectification of national boundaries.

                          The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce

                          http://guerraenucrania.wordpress.com/

                          http://pinturasdeguerra.tumblr.com/

                          http://pinturasdeguerra-mar.tumblr.com/

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                          • Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                            So how does Spain respond? Sure, we have some who want to see the Catalans punished for their evil desires for self-rule

                            I already know and told you the kind of unpleasant character you are and we will leave it at that.


                            It seems that by your repeated posts here you are a bored troll that like to say things that are false, inaccurate, and out of touch with reality. You are not alone on this of course, so I am addressing some other people as well. Either you are a troll or your powers of intelect and reasoning are very limited and are unable to understand the situation or make any effort to understand it, or are being very one-sided on purpose. Equidistance is not objectivity or being impartial. When one side is extremist, equidistance puts you closer to the extreme than to the center.


                            Any impartial observer would notice that your posts, and several others along the same lines, are worthless. You don't know the subject you are talking about. Absolutely nothing, other than your cherry picking of things you pick to reinforce your bias and preconceived notion. You are voicing opinions that are unsubstantiated. You think you know better than the people concerned what they should do.


                            I am tired and disgusted of hearing all this so I will make it abundantly clear.

                            Only a minority of radical fascistic Catalans want independence. You all are falling for the separatist propaganda to present this as a conflict between Spain and Catalonia, when half the Catalans have no problem with being Spanish and no desire to secede, and much less to be condemned to being second class citizens or worse, in a Catalan dictatorship.


                            You are all making completely wrong assumptions and grauitous offensive remarks about the Spanish government , who is representative of the Spanish people. Those that call the governments idiots... well, I believe they are describing themselves.

                            Saying the police response was brutal is false. This is routine for any public unrest. You make a fundamental error in assuming and parroting that this increases the support for independence. You are forgetting that separatists already hate Spain, driving the hate up one notch is not going to change anything, those people are already lost and out of their mind.


                            You are making up things, without taking into account that there's a large silent passive majority that does not back the extremists and is alarmed at the violence. Most sane people are peaceful and cowardly and not interested at all in the violent consequences of escalating a conflict into a civil war.


                            You all are failing wether out of ignorance or malice, to notice that this seccesion attempt is not a peaceful democratic movement, but an act of treason, completely unlawful and an aggression against the rights and freedoms of the Catalans that obey the laws and didn't support this. Separatists can try to secede, but then they will have against them half of the population that does want to remain in Spain, and will not submit to the separatist folly.


                            The aims of the Catalan separatists are completely unjust and undemocratic as what they aspire to is something like the Ulster or the Baltic countries, a country where the population that is not of the ruling cathegory is condemned to be second class citizens or worse. Not everything is subject to vote. Voting to send Jews to the gas chamber or voting for apartheid is not just nor acceptable.


                            You and the likes of you are failing to realize this unjust, unwarranted aggression is creating an enormous backlash and anger among the pro-Spain Catalans and the rest of the Spanish people. It's not the Catalans against oppressive unresponsive bureaucrats in Madrid government, they are facing the wrath of entire Spain, who is clamoring for a much harder line and a total crackdown on the separatists.


                            The King's speech line could not be more clear, we are not abandoning the Catalans that want to be Spanish and we will protect you.

                            This clash was unavoidable and was set in motion decades ago, this is a total unprovoked aggression on the part of the Catalan separatists.

                            If somebody, without any justification or the slightest provocation, insults me, hates me, and tries to rob me then I have every right to jump on him or them and smash his face to pieces. And I would do the same with any foreigner that tried to side with the enemies of Spain.


                            For any foreigner that is reading this and lives in Spain, be very careful because if we find you siding with the enemies of Spain you will be treated as an enemy as well.


                            And that's all I have to say.

                            Just so you know the kind of democrats these separatists they are, in schools, public teachers and students were shaming and harassing the students that are children of civil guard, heaping abuse on them and discriminating them.

                            Some brave students made a public protest today against this.


                            http://www.abc.es/espana/catalunya/a...6_noticia.html


                            It's fortunate that I don't live in Catalonia, because if some Septic did that to my children, I would go to school to have a serious conversation with the teacher involving tripping with doors and falling down the stairs.


                            The Catalan septics are one step away from igniting a civil war, but fortunately they will not succeed. Their coup has not any support, and the Basque Nazis already tried for 30 years and besides murdering a thousand people, they didn't achieve a thing. Cracking down on Catalan fascists will be much quicker. If they start killing people, then the retribution will be proportional.
                            CANNON, n.
                            An instrument employed in the rectification of national boundaries.

                            The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce

                            http://guerraenucrania.wordpress.com/

                            http://pinturasdeguerra.tumblr.com/

                            http://pinturasdeguerra-mar.tumblr.com/

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Imperial View Post
                              Well, Mr Puigdemont is married to a Romanian, maybe we can find a polonium solution to this problem? /jk

                              Just give him some piftie. I doubt the poisoning would even be detectable then.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by von Junzt View Post

                                For any foreigner that is reading this and lives in Spain, be very careful because if we find you siding with the enemies of Spain you will be treated as an enemy as well.
                                Nah mate, that's just you.
                                In a swamp scum rises to the top

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