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  • #16
    Saddam kept the lid on a lot of stuff by the use of brutal oppression as did Gaddafi. The question is was it more in our interest for that situation to continue. Not great for the Iraqi people no doubt but should we liberate everyone who lives under such conditions. It would never end .

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    • #17
      Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
      Saddam kept the lid on a lot of stuff by the use of brutal oppression as did Gaddafi. The question is was it more in our interest for that situation to continue. Not great for the Iraqi people no doubt but should we liberate everyone who lives under such conditions. It would never end .
      I'm not sure if they felt liberated.
      "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
      validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
      "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
        Saddam kept the lid on a lot of stuff by the use of brutal oppression as did Gaddafi. The question is was it more in our interest for that situation to continue. Not great for the Iraqi people no doubt but should we liberate everyone who lives under such conditions. It would never end .
        The problem is that the bottle's going to burst sometime anyway. Tito died, Gaddafi might well have gone even without external British and French air intervention. Saddam's regime would eventually have crashed and burned when his economy collapsed and all hell would have been let loose anyway.

        The big crime is not an intervention it's an under resourced and ill planned intervention. As the Duke of Wellington observed when the British Government was asked to intervene to aid the Greek people against the Ottomans if you are not prepared to dedicate the resources necessary and see it through to the bitter end no matter what it takes then its morally wrong to intervene in the first place. If the coalition was going to sack all the Iraqi security forces and most of the civil service then it should have been prepared to replace them with its own people until such time as a new generation was prepared to take over - otherwise it shouldn't have occupied the country.
        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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        • #19
          Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
          Saddam kept the lid on a lot of stuff by the use of brutal oppression as did Gaddafi. The question is was it more in our interest for that situation to continue. Not great for the Iraqi people no doubt but should we liberate everyone who lives under such conditions. It would never end .
          Gaddafi also supported terrorism in the past, including killing a few hundred in the air over Scotland, so there was that aspect to it.

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          • #20
            Perhaps the long forgotten example of the Scutari intervention might serve as a possible example of how things might be done. At the end of the Balkan Wars Scutari had been liberated from the Turks but there was a power vacuum. The city had no effective police force, looting was beginning, the water and sewage system (never very strictly demarcated under Ottoman administration) was collapsing, outbreaks of disease were being reported, food was not being transported from the countryside sectarian tensions (Muslim and Christian) were rising. Not unlike Basra after the fall of Saddam. An international force occupied the city and the German Army provided a police force whilst training new local cops. The Royal Engineers fixed the water and the sewage, the RAMC manned the hospital, British and German troops mounted joint patrols to suppress sectarian mobs, the Italian Army reorganised the city administration and ran it, The RN ran convoys of food into the Port which was run by Hungarian soldiers and so forth. It took a lot of resource and some firmness but by early summer 1914 they were able to hand a peaceful, secure and on the whole grateful city back to the Albanian authorities and go home (just in time to start fighting each other!).
            Last edited by MarkV; 06 Jul 16, 12:03.
            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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            • #21
              Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
              I'm not sure if they felt liberated.
              They would have done if someone had stopped the looting and provided proper security, fixed the power and water and sewerage etc etc. As it was the coalition either didn't know how and/or didn't have enough on the ground to do so and the Iraqi security forces had all been sacked (but not disarmed) and the State and City employees who ran the power, water etc had also been sacked. After only a short period of anarchy many Iraqis stopped thanking the coalition for liberating them from Saddam and started blaming them - the Beeb ran some excellent interviews with inhabitants of Basra documenting the process.
              Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
              Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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              • #22


                What an absolute **** of a human being.
                "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                G.B Shaw

                "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sergio View Post


                  What an absolute **** of a human being.
                  If this is the same as what I heard on radio 4 I thought his voice was a cracking a bit compared to his usual assured arrogance.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                    If this is the same as what I heard on radio 4 I thought his voice was a cracking a bit compared to his usual assured arrogance.
                    He did sound quite hoarse at times. You are right though not his usual arrogant image.
                    "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                    G.B Shaw

                    "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                    Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                      They would have done if someone had stopped the looting and provided proper security, fixed the power and water and sewerage etc etc. As it was the coalition either didn't know how and/or didn't have enough on the ground to do so and the Iraqi security forces had all been sacked (but not disarmed) and the State and City employees who ran the power, water etc had also been sacked. After only a short period of anarchy many Iraqis stopped thanking the coalition for liberating them from Saddam and started blaming them - the Beeb ran some excellent interviews with inhabitants of Basra documenting the process.
                      I heard a BBC reporter at the time lamenting the fact that he was the Americans make the same mistakes with the local civilian population that he watched the British Army make in Northern Ireland in the late 1960's and 1970's.

                      How come the Americans, above everyone else, knew the importance of winning the peace in 1945 but screwed up so badly in Iraq?
                      With due respect the Britain they were bit players in the war. The USA was the main player by far and they knew how to do it right in Europe and Japan. They screwed things up elsewhere a few times in the intervening period but it was so obvious that the big question was "sure you can win the war against Saddam's army but what next?".
                      "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                      validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                      "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                        How come the Americans, above everyone else, knew the importance of winning the peace in 1945 but screwed up so badly in Iraq?
                        Hubris and incompetence.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I notice there's not many American posters in this thread.

                          Are they even aware if Chilcot report and does Bush feel any guilt himself over the Hundreds of thousands that have died ?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by History fan View Post
                            I notice there's not many American posters in this thread.

                            Are they even aware if Chilcot report and does Bush feel any guilt himself over the Hundreds of thousands that have died ?
                            Doubtful.

                            Remember that the Bush and Conservative argument was that the invasion was justified based on the information available (with further support in terms about how the world was better off without Saddam, that he was committing mass murder with chemical weapons, etc.).

                            At best you're looking at "tragic mistake"-style guilt.

                            Oh, and don't forget that they'll also point to the fact that the Islamists, extremists, terrorists, sectarian militias, etc. had a pretty heavy hand in all the death and destruction, so it's hardly just Bush and Co's fault alone.

                            It takes two to tango, after all.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                              Doubtful.

                              Remember that the Bush and Conservative argument was that the invasion was justified based on the information available (with further support in terms about how the world was better off without Saddam, that he was committing mass murder with chemical weapons, etc.).

                              At best you're looking at "tragic mistake"-style guilt.

                              Oh, and don't forget that they'll also point to the fact that the Islamists, extremists, terrorists, sectarian militias, etc. had a pretty heavy hand in all the death and destruction, so it's hardly just Bush and Co's fault alone.

                              It takes two to tango, after all.
                              The point is that all wouldn't have occurred before the Invasion and Allowing the Looting and Disbanding the Iraqi Army played huge roles in the above insurgency.

                              Bush and co were also warned that it would happen and chose to ignore it.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by History fan View Post
                                The point is that all wouldn't have occurred before the Invasion and Allowing the Looting and Disbanding the Iraqi Army played huge roles in the above insurgency.

                                Bush and co were also warned that it would happen and chose to ignore it.
                                You asked what they thought, and I provided what I believe to be similar to how they would view it.

                                There is no such thing as objective, universal truth when it comes to issues of morality or guilt.

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