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  • Poland slams door on refugees

    I'm thinking that there may be some more European Nations going along with this, probably from the former Bloc Countries.

    The Brussels terror attacks prompted Poland to rethink its already unenthusiastic position on accepting asylum seekers and stop resettlements.

    “I say very clearly that I see no possibility at this time of immigrants coming to Poland,” Prime Minister Beata Szydło said on Wednesday.




    Her predecessor Ewa Kopacz had agreed to take 7,000 asylum seekers of the 160,000 being allocated across the bloc, buckling under strong pressure from Germany and other EU countries.

    Szydło and the ruling right-wing Law and Justice party were opposed to the decision, but agreed to honor it after taking power in October.

    http://www.politico.eu/article/polan...-beata-szydlo/
    "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

  • #2
    What was good enough for the Polish people in the past isn't good for others today. People forgetting history?
    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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    • #3
      Good for Poland!
      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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      • #4
        As little reason there is to like Poland, they are right with that decision.

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        • #5
          I believe that accepting so many refugees brings with it domestic and international concerns for each country. However, have any of the Brussels terrorists been identified as refugees? The four I'm aware of were all Belgium or French nationals, weren't they?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Biscuit View Post
            I believe that accepting so many refugees brings with it domestic and international concerns for each country. However, have any of the Brussels terrorists been identified as refugees? The four I'm aware of were all Belgium or French nationals, weren't they?
            I think your right, which baffles me further. Here they are in a pretty much a land of plenty and tolerance yet they attack innocent people. The only conclusion is that their religion drives them to it.

            Does anyone else have a different conclusion? A explanation? I look at the San Bernardino attack and I've no other conclusion. The guy was well employed and had a better life than most of the people on the planet. Yet he went nuts.
            Credo quia absurdum.


            Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Biscuit View Post
              I believe that accepting so many refugees brings with it domestic and international concerns for each country. However, have any of the Brussels terrorists been identified as refugees? The four I'm aware of were all Belgium or French nationals, weren't they?
              They went to fight in Syria and they got back to Europe/Belgium by using the uncontrolled wave of refugees.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                I think your right, which baffles me further. Here they are in a pretty much a land of plenty and tolerance yet they attack innocent people. The only conclusion is that their religion drives them to it.

                Does anyone else have a different conclusion? A explanation? I look at the San Bernardino attack and I've no other conclusion. The guy was well employed and had a better life than most of the people on the planet. Yet he went nuts.
                I don't think religion is the driving force. I think its within them, who they are individuals. Some people are consumed by hate, and need an outlet to express it. The extremist groups give them a vehicle to indulge in their natural pleasures and pursuits.


                They went to fight in Syria and they got back to Europe/Belgium by using the uncontrolled wave of refugees.
                Imperial, thanks for educating me. I wasn't aware of that.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Biscuit View Post
                  I don't think religion is the driving force. I think its within them, who they are individuals. Some people are consumed by hate, and need an outlet to express it. The extremist groups give them a vehicle to indulge in their natural pleasures and pursuits.
                  Sure there are sick people who morals are seared. Yet they must know what they are doing is wrong. I attribute that to demonic obsession/ possession. It's real, I've seen it personally. I was a member of the Order of Saint Luke and have participated in freeing people from such. Not for a novice btw. You really have to fast and pray and really cleanse yourself before going there.

                  I know I'm going to catch some flak from stating the previous. But exorcism is real but doesn't involve anything but the spoken word.

                  People can deal with the concept of multiple dimensions but refuse to realize that there are beings that can exist in more than a few. Some of them are not nice...
                  Credo quia absurdum.


                  Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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                  • #10
                    Good for the Poles. Good to see at least some countries still have the guts to exert their sovereignty and exercise the will of their citizens even if its unpopular internationally. Interesting that most of the sanity in Europe is coming from the East. Maybe they learned something from the past 100 years or so that the West didn't.
                    "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

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                    • #11
                      Great news it's unfortunate that only after a significant violent act with huge media coverage has happened that making the right decision is taken that'll reduce the number of further attacks.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                        It's real, I've seen it personally. I was a member of the Order of Saint Luke .
                        "Luke" ??
                        Like Luke Skywalker ?
                        That rug really tied the room together

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                          Sure there are sick people who morals are seared. Yet they must know what they are doing is wrong. I attribute that to demonic obsession/ possession. It's real, I've seen it personally. I was a member of the Order of Saint Luke and have participated in freeing people from such. Not for a novice btw. You really have to fast and pray and really cleanse yourself before going there.

                          I know I'm going to catch some flak from stating the previous. But exorcism is real but doesn't involve anything but the spoken word.

                          People can deal with the concept of multiple dimensions but refuse to realize that there are beings that can exist in more than a few. Some of them are not nice...
                          I cannot take you seriously until you decide to provide proof that "demons" are real. What are they? Where are they from? What's the history of this heretofore undiscovered species? I'd love details. Ignoring mental illness and human emotions and deciding instead that magic and demons are the cause is lazy and exceedingly ignorant.
                          First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                            Sure there are sick people who morals are seared. Yet they must know what they are doing is wrong. I attribute that to demonic obsession/ possession. It's real, I've seen it personally. I was a member of the Order of Saint Luke and have participated in freeing people from such. Not for a novice btw. You really have to fast and pray and really cleanse yourself before going there.

                            I know I'm going to catch some flak from stating the previous. But exorcism is real but doesn't involve anything but the spoken word.

                            People can deal with the concept of multiple dimensions but refuse to realize that there are beings that can exist in more than a few. Some of them are not nice...
                            Really seems to be a case of my invisible friends make more sense than yours. Where is the proof that they exist?
                            "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                            G.B Shaw

                            "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                            Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

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                            • #15
                              Demons makes as much sense as colonialism in this case. I would say infectious meme but I don't think that would go over any better :-)

                              Terrorism is the way that a militarily weaker culture or sub culture engages in combat. Certainly not all conflicts are over real estate in theory but in practice the term boots on the ground comes to mind. Military science is in the end about occupying or denying access to geography. Even in wars that are about resources those resources general have some geographical component. The small "terrorist" raids carried out by native americans are an example of discouraging access to their land where they would be slaughtered in a "conventional" all out military engagement. Pointing out the obvious fact that "a military occupation, of territory that the terrorists view as their homeland or prize greatly" is a motivational factor doesn't seem helpful.

                              Cultures certainly exist independent of any geographical "home land", gypsies may be an example, nomads also may only see grass lands as a resource more than a home land. Gypsies however I would classify as a well adapted and persistent parasitic subculture and nomads such as the Mongol hordes were very much interested in exploiting their neighbors geography and wealth. What makes the two completely different is that Mongols seem to have had little resistance to being assimilated. The Mongols can be seen as a plague that destroys the host and gypsies as being well adapted to their host a topic I will return to. Still geography plays an important part in history, a theory now gaining wide acceptance among historians. Three popular books come to mind. Guns,Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond, War! What Is It Good For? and Why the West Rules—For Now by Ian Morris are all excellent resources. What these there books have in common is that show how geography shapes cultures and also how the meaning of geography evolves along with culture. The important point is that geography shapes culture. (for more on the destruction of Middle Eastern culture by the Mongols see this article Destruction under the Mongol Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructi ... gol_Empire)

                              A close but broad inspection of history shows that human civilizations behave in ways not that much differently than other species. Groups of individuals defend there territory as vigorously against members of their own species as they do against other species. In humans however we have a new space we can call ideology which is just as real as geography. Ideologies are both infectious and fiercely defensive. While ideologies may not be biological in the conventional sense they are necessarily built on the innate structures that all humans share. No one is completely immune to being infected by an ideology foreign to their own culture just as no culture is immune from the diseases of a foreign culture. For our purposes and to simplify we can define culture as an ideology. Human cultures can then be seen clashing in the ideological space as well as the geographical space. As referenced in the earlier mention books even when cultures spread they were originally influenced by the geography they developed in.

                              When we talk about Islamic terrorist we should keep in mind that Islam originated in a part of the world where resources are concentrated in very narrow areas. It shouldn't be necessary to point out that Islam is also just a component of a broader Arab culture. Islam is also just one of three Abrahamic traditions originating in the same general geography. What is common to all three is an obsession with very specific and in someways seemly meaningless pieces of real estate. What seems alien to people from geographical regions with abundant resources may very well reflect the fact that small difference in access to resources have traditional meant the difference between life and death in the Middle East. Looked at in this light the old testaments justification of god given rights to deprive outside groups of life sustaining resources by warfare and genocide is a bit easier to understand.

                              In some ways Islam can be seen as a transfer of the Jewish cultural memeplex concerning warfare to their close cousins the Arabs. What is important to note is that unlike "Western" culture their is no tradition of separation of secular law from religious law and that extends to the conduct of war as well. Winning an ideological war by any means necessary is inseparable from secular conduct.

                              To understand the Arab mindset that Islam arose out of one tradition is critical. Their is an Arab saying, me against my brother, my brother and me against our father, our family against the tribe, and the tribe against the world. By extension this is again the product of a geography where resources are both scarce and concentrated in limited geographical space. It is also important to understand that it is a herding not an agricultural tradition. Herders like our paleolithic hunter gather ancestors tend to have a very different moral code than agriculturalist. Herders and hunter gathers tend to have a dislike for hierarchical systems and while less collectively violent in some ways than agrarians for practical reasons have systems of immediate justice. The systems of justice tend to be hostile to fix systems of law that predominate in agrarian societies. The primary requirement of an agrarian system is efficient planning and strict legal codes of ownership and hierarchy of rights.

                              There is also an Eastern influence at work in the Middle East that I don't have time to get into but it has to do with the Western concept of rights opposed to the Eastern concept of obligations in societal structuring. The important point here is that systems of obligation while extremely successful tend to be static because conflicting rights are less often an issue.

                              The original post's argument seems to ignore one final important point. One of the hallmarks of large successful civilization is Hobbes's Leviathan. The instability in the Middle East is more tied to the dissolution of the Turkish empire than anything having to do with European colonialism. World War One was just the straw that broke the camels back as the Ottoman empire was sick long before it's final collapse. European colonialism simply tried to fill the void left when the Ottoman control vanished. The Ottoman Empire can of course be seen as just the previous power to fill the void left by the Mongol destruction of much of the Middle East. Islam or if you prefer Arab culture was also already in decline at the time of the Mongol invasion. The Turk may have reestablished Muslim hegemony in much of the Middle East but in many ways Turkey is a European power having inherited the mantle of Eastern Rome. It is not surprising that Arab Islam wants to return to it's glory days preceding the 13th century. Having been suppressed for 800 years Arab Islam remains in total disarray. If it had been left to develop unmolested it seems reasonable to presume that some powerful Arab state would have arose to be the Leviathan. Certainly that was the vision of Saddam Hussein.

                              I think we need to now explore why Western Europe after thousands of years of tribal warfare terminating in World War Two has finally ceased it's eternal warfare. Comparing the Middle East today to Europe during the religious wars is certainly enlightening but is a long and difficult story. Suffice it to say that first Turkish and then European colonialism has prevented the kind of cataclysmic war that would have lead to the same kind of begrudging unification that the European Union represents. If there had been a victor in the Iran (persian) war the Middle East would look much different. What seem to be different here was that although a million people were killed in that war neither side seemed able to inflict the kind of devastation the Germans were able to bring forcing all sides to see the futility of future conflict.

                              The final thing I want to say is if you want to understand the expansionist nature of Islam you need to look at the devastation it brought to the Indian culture. This is something Europeans seem unable to comprehend. By 1525 at the end of the Delhi Sultanate the population of India had decreased by 80 million. Some sources place the lost of population from 600 million down to 200 million. Whatever the real numbers in many ways the Hindu culture has never fully recovered. There is also the 30 million African slaves killed or transported to Arabia. In Europe the Jihad accounts for 50 million deaths. Until fairly recently in history Islam was the greatest imperial exploitive expansionist force in the world and there is no reason to believe that it would not wish to be so again.
                              We hunt the hunters

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