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Self defense in a civilized country..

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  • Self defense in a civilized country..

    It was a warm summer evening, and I was at home in Sheffield, just about to get ready for bed. My 10-year-old daughter, the only other person in the house, was fast asleep. The windows were open, and for a brief moment I thought I heard someone moving about in the garden, but put it down to the odd way sound carries in hot weather. I was upstairs when I suddenly heard a loud bang. I looked out of my bedroom window, and saw a man in a hooded top, trying to force the back door. I shouted at him, but, instead of scarpering, he just swore at me and carried on battering the door.

    It is unusual for burglars to break into a property knowing there’s someone inside who has seen them. I ran downstairs, grabbed the phone and took it into the kitchen, dialling 999 while watching the guy through the little glass panel as he struggled to force the door. I was on the point of giving my address when one powerful blow caused the door frame to splinter, and I knew he’d be in with the next one. I said, “Too late!” and dropped the phone.

    I didn’t know he’d be armed, but thought he might be, so I dashed to the cupboard under the stairs – there were a lot of garden tools in there that could have been handy. But, as it happens, I used to collect old British swords and I still had a 1796 British light cavalry sabre. It’s a fearsome-looking thing, and I hoped that the sight of it would be enough.

    The burglar and I entered the kitchen from opposite sides. He slammed in through the back door, brandishing a length of timber like a baseball bat. His eyes were wild, and I guessed he was on drugs. I noticed a quick shift as he registered the fact that I had a sword, and he turned and bolted the way he’d come. I thought that meant this episode was finished.

    I couldn’t lock the door behind him (because he’d bust it), so I ran out into the garden to make sure he had left the premises. At this point, he changed his mind and began an attack, aiming blow after blow with his club at my head and shoulders. I was using the sword to block the blows, while also feigning attack.

    I was terrified, but I was also very aware that I probably shouldn’t really hit him with the sword; that I should act proportionately. The problem was, I didn’t know how far he was going to go – I don’t think he knew, either.
    http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandst...ord-experience
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

  • #2
    Guardian reader.

    Using whatever comes to hand to protect oneself is not acting disproportionately. If he had killed the intruder with the sword while bring attacked it is unlikely that he would have been prosecuted.
    If he had injured the intruder then cut his head off and put it on a pole outside of his house that may have been a bit disproportionate though.
    "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Surrey View Post
      Using whatever comes to hand to protect oneself is not acting disproportionately. If he had killed the intruder with the sword while bring attacked it is unlikely that he would have been prosecuted.
      At least here he would have been prosecuted for that. It is unlikely that it would have led to a any sort of conviction but he would very likely have been prosecuted. Then again such rights vary from one country to another.

      Catch is that here there exists a clause in the law that (roughly translates to) a person is not allowed to cause severe damage to other persons health in order to save or protect a relatively minor property loss. And also that the right to use that (i.e. right of self defense) ends immediately after the immediate danger has disappeared and that right may even be reversed should the initial attacker be chased.

      For example it could be argued that by following the burglar outside with a drawn sword the person himself gave a right of self-defense for the burglar... Then again he would have been within his rights to impale the burglar when the burglar first attacked him.
      It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

      Comment


      • #4
        And them they will say me that Americans doesn't have issues with gun question in Europe...
        There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

        Comment


        • #5
          Boom!One more time !Boom!
          If ever we hadn't already understood that you take us for loonies...
          Your agenda is subtle like an elephant in a china shop.
          That rug really tied the room together

          Comment


          • #6
            We really have to do something about the drug problem.
            We hunt the hunters

            Comment


            • #7
              You know a 12 gauge tends to settle this matter. Try to break into my house and...
              Credo quia absurdum.


              Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                I was terrified, but I was also very aware that I probably shouldn’t really hit him with the sword; that I should act proportionately. The problem was, I didn’t know how far he was going to go – I don’t think he knew, either.
                http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandst...ord-experience
                If you are being attacked in your home by a person armed with a weapon and you fear for your life, or the people around you, you have the right to defend yourself with deadly force, no matter the possible intentions of the person attacking you.

                In the case in question, while the householder did follow the attacker outside, it was the intruder who started both attacks, so the householder would still have the right of self-defence.
                The Householder would only lose the right to self defence if after the attacker had started to run away the householder followed
                him and then attacked the intruder while he was still running away.
                Last edited by redcoat; 20 Feb 16, 08:11.

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                • #9
                  I'm more than a little curious as to why it matters to you. I meant that seriously, and I understand that the rest of us are doing the same thing to you sometimes (a habit trying to quit)

                  We do our thing, you do yours. Let it lie.

                  Having said that I have a razor sharp Alibion glaidius that will make any fool that wants to play hardcore me and mine cry like a little girl until they can't breathe, or live...

                  I'll deal with the legal system the next day.
                  Last edited by Rojik; 20 Feb 16, 07:58.
                  Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

                  That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    So despite being armed with a blunt antique, he was concerned about hurting the intruder....yet demanded the police pay postage for the return of said blunt antique.

                    Brave man indeed.

                    Originally posted by Rojik View Post
                    I'll deal with the legal system the next day.
                    I'm going to report you to the UN!

                    Therein lies the problem.....when politicians begin to use popular mood and feel-good sentiment rather than law as written, arbitrating what constitutes justified self defense begins a slippery slope which opens itself to all kinds of bizarre technicalities.

                    Guns...absolutely not.

                    Antique swords..how odd of you, but should you have one...and why?

                    You're a "collector"? Nonsense! A full comprehensive background check is required.

                    BB/pellet gun...no!

                    Kick in the face....maybe...but ask first, and then only when wearing soft fuzzy slippers.

                    Using reason in a soft tone.....yes of course!

                    Did you offer a healthy vegan meal? No? Well maybe you should have diffused the situation that way...you evil meat eater.

                    Your child is in the house? Perhaps the door should have been locked. It wasn't? Your fault! Also, we think you may be an abusive parent, you dangerous Papa!

                    Your child should be taken away from you.

                    Was there really criminal intent? First of all, you should not use the word "criminal", but use instead slightly inconveniently uninvited guest first.

                    Politely ask inconveniently uninvited guest why he/she/non-gendered person why he/she/it is there.

                    Have paper questionaire, in triplicate form, ready with crayon, because pencils are wood, and this kills trees!

                    You'd better smile. Did you smile? No? You bigot!

                    Why not give the TV set and hope for the best? You can obviously afford another, you horrible bigot, capitalist.

                    Did intruder have rough childhood.....popular mood may dictate entitlement, and rightly so. Giving the TV is not enough, offer the car keys too.

                    Wife being raped in bedroom.....maybe it's because she's also a racist, bigot, filthy rich capitalist like you are.

                    You raped your wife in order to conceive a child...then prevented her from exercising her Star Beam, Comet Unicorn Goddess-given right to an abortion with state monies.

                    Bend over. Did you not bend over? Well, there's the problem...you didn't bend over.

                    You didn't bend over enough.

                    Bend over more!

                    Why do you hate gays?

                    Is intruder attacking? It's the drugs, and then it's only a form of expression, because he/she/it/non-gendered has no other way to communicate....and cocaine helps with this.

                    Did you attack? You're a racist. We don't care if it's in your house.

                    How did you pay for your house?

                    You have a nice attractive house? You tempted so-called "criminal action", but you're actually the criminal here.

                    If you have a house, it's only because you took it/stole it from someone else, most likely a poor minority, open-border family.

                    Why do you hate minorities?

                    You have rope in you're shed..did you plan on lynching this poor uninvited guest? We think you did, and we also think you deliberately baited this poor minority uninvited gay guest to your stolen residence to lynch him/her/it/non-gendered vegan poor person.

                    He's not a criminal, just a poor, down trodden person with no money.

                    You gave no money.

                    You didn't give enough money.

                    You forgot to bend over while giving away wife, child, house, car, and money.

                    Don't ask police for help, you're not the one needing help.

                    The police bends over, why aren't you?

                    You're a bigot.

                    You're a racist.

                    You're an evil capitalist who has money.

                    You have a blunt antique, therefore you're also a very dangerous person and require sensitivity courses for the next 10 years, during which you're name will become synonymous with every form of evil racisim and bigotry.

                    You should go to jail, where you will be taught to bend over.

                    What does MTV say? Bend over.

                    Listen to the wisdom of Kim Kardashian. She says, "Bend over".

                    Oh...and lastly....did I forget to mention you're also a fascist? There, you're a fascist. Our brave and noble Anti-fas will be sent to deal with you once we publicize your name, image and location to the world.

                    Don't laugh...there is a number of people who actually believe much of what I've written above, and incredibly enough, are slowly changing local ordinances and laws to reflect this alter-reality absurdity. San Fransisco comes to mind.

                    Self defense is a human right, and any laws which make the citizen afraid of using necessary force to protect self and family, is IMO, not civilized.
                    Last edited by asterix; 20 Feb 16, 10:32.
                    You'll live, only the best get killed.

                    -General Charles de Gaulle

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by redcoat View Post
                      If you are being attacked in your home by a person armed with a weapon and you fear for your life, or the people around you, you have the right to defend yourself with deadly force, no matter the possible intentions of the person attacking you.

                      In the case in question, while the householder did follow the attacker outside, it was the intruder who started both attacks, so the householder would still have the right of self-defence.
                      The Householder would only lose the right to self defence if after the attacker had started to run away the householder followed
                      him and then attacked the intruder while he was still running away.
                      You brits are nuts. Break into my house and get a load of buckshot in the face. No appeals, no running away after the fact. I won't shoot them in the back because they won't have the chance to turn around...

                      What is it with you guys that you won't defend yourselves? Guns are just tools, they're just more efficient than a cricket bat or hammer... Or sword.

                      Credo quia absurdum.


                      Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by asterix View Post
                        S
                        Self defense is a human right, and any laws which make the citizen afraid of using necessary force to protect self and family, is IMO, not civilized.
                        Agreed. I recently moved house from a farm to country town 'suburbia' and in the process I got rid of my 12 gauge, cut down shotty of dubious origin*. I did it because I don't see a reason for having it here rather than giving a crap what the law does or doesn't say.

                        The way I see it is that as long as I'm not hurting decent people then I'm doing the right thing. If I have to hurt a bad guy to protect me and mine then I'll do it and stand before 12 after and worry about it then.

                        *read got rid of meaning gave it to a mate in exchange for him helping me move
                        Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

                        That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                          You brits are nuts. Break into my house and get a load of buckshot in the face. No appeals, no running away after the fact. I won't shoot them in the back because they won't have the chance to turn around...

                          What is it with you guys that you won't defend yourselves? Guns are just tools, they're just more efficient than a cricket bat or hammer... Or sword.

                          So says Annie Oakley
                          "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                          Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                          you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Rojik View Post
                            I'm more than a little curious as to why it matters to you. I meant that seriously, and I understand that the rest of us are doing the same thing to you sometimes (a habit trying to quit)

                            We do our thing, you do yours. Let it lie.

                            Having said that I have a razor sharp Alibion glaidius that will make any fool that wants to play hardcore me and mine cry like a little girl until they can't breathe, or live...

                            I'll deal with the legal system the next day.
                            Is there a forum rule I am not aware of that prohibits me from reading news from other nations and sharing a few of them here to get an idea of how others react to these stories?
                            I'm asking because I have been collecting news stories from Australia from one week, just one weeks collection of news about the murder cases, gang fights, etc that rare going on in the Down Under. Debating if I should post them....
                            What say you? Is this a national secret? Or can anyone read the news ?
                            Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by sebfrench76 View Post
                              Boom!One more time !Boom!
                              If ever we hadn't already understood that you take us for loonies...
                              Your agenda is subtle like an elephant in a china shop.
                              Sharing news and views is my agenda, it's called "Current Events"
                              Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

                              Comment

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