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Best German Prime Minster (Bundeskanzler(in)) 1949 -

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  • Best German Prime Minster (Bundeskanzler(in)) 1949 -

    Who has been the best of (West) Germany's leaders of the latest version of the country ?
    11
    1. Konrad Adenauer
    45.45%
    5
    2. Ludwig Erhard
    9.09%
    1
    3. Kurt Georg Kiesinger
    0.00%
    0
    4. Willy Brandt
    27.27%
    3
    5. Helmut Schmidt
    9.09%
    1
    6. Helmut Kohl
    9.09%
    1
    7. Gerhard Schröder
    0.00%
    0
    8. Angela Merkel
    0.00%
    0

    The poll is expired.

    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. Thomas Jefferson.

  • #2
    Who the hell voted for Schmidt of all people?

    That guy was a failure as a chancelor, he's just good at pretending to be intellectual. But his track record is awful. Thank god we where spared another period under him.

    Voted Brandt. (Am a party member of the CDU though.)

    Ha, wie so stolz und hehr
    Wirft über Land und Meer
    Weithin der deutsche Aar
    Flammenden Blick.

    Comment


    • #3
      I chose Helmut Kohl - mainly for the German reunification.

      Comment


      • #4
        Konrad Hermann Joseph Adenauer

        Why? Under his leadership West Germany came out of the ruin of WWII, became once again a strong ecomical power, regained respect on the world stage, formed strong alliances with out foes and did it at the age when many man had long rretired. His pre war carreer is also not bad either.

        None of the other's could have pulled this off. #2 would have been Brandt. Gerhard Schröder shouldn't even be on the list imo.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_...er_Nazi_regime
        Last edited by Half Pint John; 08 Nov 12, 07:19.
        "Ask not what your country can do for you"

        Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

        you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

        Comment


        • #5
          I had to have a sneaky look to see if anyone had voted for Merkel...

          Comment


          • #6


            Brandt.
            Courage and vision.

            Here seen kneeling at the Warsaw ghetto in 1970.
            BoRG

            You may not be interested in War, but War is interested in You - Leon Trotski, June 1919.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
              I had to have a sneaky look to see if anyone had voted for Merkel...
              She would be my #3
              "Ask not what your country can do for you"

              Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

              you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                She would be my #3
                My knowledge is limited on ths isubject but I'd have thought Adenauer with what he had to face ,came out on top. Other than that I'm not really qualified to comment on the others...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Major Sennef View Post


                  Brandt.
                  Courage and vision.

                  Here seen kneeling at the Warsaw ghetto in 1970.
                  Same reason I voted for him. Of course back then, the conservatives viciously attacked him for doing this. Heck, they even accused him of being a traitor because he was with the resistance during WWII, instead of the SS lik certain proud conservatives.
                  Reaction to the 2016 Munich shootings:
                  Europe: "We are shocked and support you in these harsh times, we stand by you."
                  USA: "We will check people from Germany extra-hard and it is your own damn fault for being so stupid."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Major Sennef View Post

                    Brandt.
                    Courage and vision.

                    Here seen kneeling at the Warsaw ghetto in 1970.
                    He was a Soviet stooge.

                    In 1934, he took part in the founding of the International Bureau of Revolutionary Youth Organizations, and was elected to its Secretariat.

                    LINK
                    In 1935 the Trotskyists were expelled from the Bureau, as they had collectively embarked on entryism into the major labour parties (which was contrary to the ambitions of IBRYO and the London Bureau to build a new international).

                    LINK
                    The IBRYO carried Stalin's anti-Trotsky water, and Brandt played right along as a member of the IBRYO's secretariat. I might concede that that might have required courage, but I'm at a loss to see any evidence of "vision."

                    So it should have come as no surprise thirty years later that his close aide Günter Guillaume was really an undercover Stasi agent.

                    I never ceased to be amazed how moral bankruptcy and intellectual sloth are considered "courage and vision" in some circles.

                    Then again, I've never sought entrée to those circles.

                    Maybe he might have exhibited his "courage and vision" by addressing the Red Army's stall before the gates of Warsaw while the Germans reduced it to rubble -- but then he wouldn't have been the idol of starry-eyed college student types any more.
                    I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                      He was a Soviet stooge.
                      The IBRYO carried Stalin's anti-Trotsky water, and Brandt played right along as a member of the IBRYO's secretariat. I might concede that that might have required courage, but I'm at a loss to see any evidence of "vision."

                      So it should have come as no surprise thirty years later that his close aide Günter Guillaume was really an undercover Stasi agent.

                      I never ceased to be amazed how moral bankruptcy and intellectual sloth are considered "courage and vision" in some circles.

                      Then again, I've never sought entrée to those circles.

                      Maybe he might have exhibited his "courage and vision" by addressing the Red Army's stall before the gates of Warsaw while the Germans reduced it to rubble -- but then he wouldn't have been the idol of starry-eyed college student types any more.
                      Brandt was a social-democrat, not a communist as you misinformedly seem to think.
                      The link you try to lay is more indicative for a worldview full of conspiracies than historical veracity. Rather than being a Soviet stooge, as mayor of West Berlin in the 60s, Brandt stood tall against the communist authorities surrounding Berlin on several occasions. As for the Guillaume affair, there really is no connection with Brandt’s youth. In fact Stasi spy master Markus Wolf in his memoirs states that the Guillaume case was the worst agent handling in the history of Stasi.

                      The picture I posted shows him kneeling of at the monument of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, not the 1944 Warsaw uprising as your post suggests.
                      This act marked the start of the improvement in the relations between West Germany and its communist neighbors and the USSR which till then had been very tight and frozen. The opening of contacts between East and West lead to more awareness of discrepancy between the communist claims and reality and contributed ultimately to the downfall of the communist system in Eastern Europe.
                      IMO both visionary and courageous as there was a lot of German internal opposition to rapprochement. In the end however Brandt’s policy contributed to getting Germany reunited without a war.
                      BoRG

                      You may not be interested in War, but War is interested in You - Leon Trotski, June 1919.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself – that was the ultimate subtlety; consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink -

                        from 1984, by George Orwell, ch 3 (1949)
                        Originally posted by Major Sennef View Post
                        Brandt was a social-democrat, not a communist as you misinformedly seem to think. The link you try to lay is more indicative for a worldview full of conspiracies than historical veracity.
                        Then how do you explain Brandt's leadership of a socialist group that voted to expel its Trotskyite members at just the very time when Trotskyites were being purged -- and persecuted -- in nearly every revolutionary socialist organization the world over, from the USSR to Spain and well beyond?

                        Whether or not he was a card-carrying member of the party is almost immaterial: his actions were in accordance with the CPSU's goals -- and that's what counts.

                        Originally posted by Major Sennef View Post
                        Rather than being a Soviet stooge, as mayor of West Berlin in the 60s, Brandt stood tall against the communist authorities surrounding Berlin on several occasions.
                        That was his job: to put Berlin's interests above all others. Of course, one has to wonder what he wanted from Kennedy in response to the establishment of the wall: perhaps he wanted the US to attack East Germany.

                        Originally posted by Major Sennef View Post
                        As for the Guillaume affair, there really is no connection with Brandt’s youth. In fact Stasi spy master Markus Wolf in his memoirs states that the Guillaume case was the worst agent handling in the history of Stasi.
                        And no one claimed that the Guillaume affair was connected to any incident of Brandt's youth. The Guillaume affair was connected to Brandt's gullibility and naivete and intellectual sloth: afflictions quite common to the "fellow traveler" crowd. And that Stasi's director claimed that Guillaume was poorly handled reflects even worse on Brandt: he got suckered by Stasi's second string. It would appear that pulling the wool over Willy Brandt's eyes and planting a spy in his office was really no great challenge at all.

                        Originally posted by Major Sennef View Post
                        The picture I posted shows him kneeling of at the monument of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, not the 1944 Warsaw uprising as your post suggests.
                        I know. My question was why did Brandt go out of his way to honor the Ghetto uprising but chose to remain silent about the 1944 Warsaw uprising. Why honor the one anti-Nazi fight, but not the other?

                        Originally posted by Major Sennef View Post
                        IMO both visionary and courageous as there was a lot of German internal opposition to rapprochement. In the end however Brandt’s policy contributed to getting Germany reunited without a war.
                        Even in a country as cut-off as North Korea, the secret police will often resort to shutting down the electrical grid so that they can seize contraband VHS tapes in people's VCR's. Likewise, with Brandt or without, the GDR's shelf-life was decidedly finite. They had all kinds of illicit access to various products and media from the West, and could develop a fairly accurate picture of the differences in life between the two spheres. You place too much significance on one man, and a rather insignificant man in the big scheme of things.
                        I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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                        • #13
                          Helmut Kohl - no doubt about it! The great unifier and historical leader.
                          "What we do in life, echoes in eternity" General Maximus Decimus Meridius

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                            Then how do you explain Brandt's leadership of a socialist group that voted to expel its Trotskyite members...?
                            I guess the explanation that Trotskyites have no place in a social-democrat party doesn't fit in your world view.
                            BoRG

                            You may not be interested in War, but War is interested in You - Leon Trotski, June 1919.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Helmut Schmidt

                              Helmut Schmidt

                              How can I vote for him, or is this forum closed ?

                              Comment

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