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Germany's secret to staving off the eurocrisis? Manufacturing.

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  • Germany's secret to staving off the eurocrisis? Manufacturing.

    Industries says Germany's know-how and unique apprentice system currently gives it an edge over China.

    http://news.yahoo.com/germanys-secre...GFnZQ--;_ylv=3


    Do other countrys have an equal apprentice system?


    eg My barber had to have 3 years schooling before getting his certification. First year all classroom, second year classroom and on the job training and the thrid year some class room with most on the job.
    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

  • #2
    Hi John

    The UK used to have one of the most respected and renowned apprenticeship infrastructures in the world.
    However the recent UK Governments who've had a desire to fiddle with things when there not broken, have brought about its downfall. The rush in this country over the past 20yrs or so is to push everyone into University, even those that normally wouldn't get in.
    Thus kids who would normally go into a engineering apprenticeship for instance, find themselves being pushed/enticed into further academic study at university, doing courses that have little real value in the workplace. The number of actual university degrees increased, simply so that every career path had the opp for a related university degree. Thus people leave university with a degree in Hairdressing, Bar Management, Golf and even David Beckham

    The Polytechnics (which were Further Education establishments) that once catered for those not academically gifted, were quickly converted into Universities, enticed by cash incentives from central government.

    Now 20 odd yrs later, they realise that not everybody is cut out for University and more apprenticeship schemes are being created. Though a step in the right direction, we've lost a generation and also the experience & expertise of those that used to run the schemes in the first place.

    Regards
    "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

    "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

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    • #3
      Nope. Apprentice-systems go against the grain of the last century and a half or so of Swedish ideals of societal modernisation.

      The current Swedish government is however looking to try to introduce some variation of the German system.

      Comment


      • #4
        There has never been a overarching system here in the US as in 20th Century Germany. In the 18th & 19th Centuries the immigrants from Europe imported their appprentice methods, & immeadiatly started altering them to fit the differing conditions here. The constant introduction of new technologies, methods, tools, and a rapid cycle of construction & demolition of industrial plant meant long apprenticeships focused on a specific process did not serve the rapidly changing industry. When the Arts & Crafts movement came to the US from Great Britain in the latter 19th Century one of the adaptations applied to it was the translation of skills training from a master & a few journeymen teaching a few apprentices to professional teaching specialists teaching a larger number of students a broader set of skills.

        The rapid movement of labor from one employer to another made craft style long term skills education less suitable & efficient. In the latter 19th Century US industry leaders begain lobbying local governments to take on the teaching of basic tool use and skills in the public schools. The former elementary education of the public schools was expanded in two directions. One was the addition of the basic academic ciricula suitable for preparing young men as clerks, or salemen, or college prep. The other was adding in 'shop' or vocational/trades education.

        By the start of the 20th Century public schools were rapidly accquiring the tools and skilled teachers for educating teenage boys in how a wide variety of tools were used and the bare basics of how they were applied to manufactoring. That and the mathmatics & literary skills also provided created by the 1920s a large pool of young men who could be quickly become productive labor in the factories and construction sites. Apprenticeships were reduced to brief introductory training programs, primarily on the job training. The introductory phase of the traditional appreticeship had been adapted to the mass production ideas that emerged in the 19th Century and moved to public or private schools. One of the auxillary benefits here was that a broader number of young men were exposed to these basic skills than before. Many went through the high school vocational classes simply because they could, even tho they expected to become salesmen, clerks, or college students.

        Parts of the older apprentice system were preserved tho adapted & still exist. Mostly in the construction trades. ie: In Indiana accquirung a state license as a plumber involves a two year apprenticeship working for a licensed plumber, demonstrating proficiency in a set of speicifed manual skills, and passing a written exam on health codes mostly concerning drain installation. A few specific manufactors have formal apprenticeship programs. these are often aimed at training specialized mechanical engineers rather than production workers. Millwrights who install marchine tools & set up production lines are ofthen the product of these engineering apprenticeships.
        Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 27 Oct 12, 15:27.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
          Germany's know-how and unique apprentice system currently gives it an edge over China.
          rubbish! Germany's ever growing taxes and fines and other payments paid by Germans is what keeps the country afloat.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by stalin View Post
            rubbish! Germany's ever growing taxes and fines and other payments paid by Germans is what keeps the country afloat.
            As usual, out of contact with reality. What fines? Speeding tickets? Why does the Geramn economy continue to grow, it's export markets as well?

            Because they offer top quality for reaseonable prices, both of which the USSR doesn't do. I'm still waiting to see something labled "Made in Russia". When I do I'll still have to think that the quality is well below that of Made in Germany.

            Why do I even waste my time with you.
            "Ask not what your country can do for you"

            Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

            you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

            Comment


            • #7
              Germany certainly has an edge. I lament the state of affairs in our United States in comparison. While I know many in the trades, there is an enormous shortage of skilled tradesman around here to fill the spots. The wages of Welders, Pipefitters, Machinists, Electricians and the like have been rising steadily. Somewhere along the line, this nation perceived working with one's hands somehow beneath them, and we're reaping what we've sown now. When an electrician walks into a building and tightens the wire nut in an outlet in all of thirty seconds, walks out, and charges you one hundred and seventy dollars for a service call, I ask myself why a college degree is so necessary.
              ...how useless it was to struggle against fortune, this being the burden of wisdom which the ages had bequeathed to him.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Lucky 6 View Post
                Germany certainly has an edge. I lament the state of affairs in our United States in comparison. While I know many in the trades, there is an enormous shortage of skilled tradesman around here to fill the spots. The wages of Welders, Pipefitters, Machinists, Electricians and the like have been rising steadily. Somewhere along the line, this nation perceived working with one's hands somehow beneath them, and we're reaping what we've sown now.
                The education system I described became neglected and to some degree dismantled in the latter half of the 20th Century. In part this was the result of imperative to send every teenager of even average performance to college. The professional educators turned the public high schools towards college prep academys because the middle class suburban parents sitting on the school boards demanded it. There also emerged the 'Wal Mart' concept of making price the sole criteria for selection. Forget about evaluating skill of the tradesman. Provider X or Y was selected because he gave the lowest bid. This widespread practice 'marketed' away skill & quality in favor of cheap.

                Originally posted by Lucky 6 View Post
                When an electrician walks into a building and tightens the wire nut in an outlet in all of thirty seconds, walks out, and charges you one hundred and seventy dollars for a service call, I ask myself why a college degree is so necessary.
                Only in a minority of states. Indiana is typical of most in having few licensing requirements for skilled trades. Plumbers have a brief two year apprenticeship program. Electricians have none. The only obstacle to starting a electrical business here is obtaining the appropriate insurance, and since there is no legal requirement for that in many cases any idiot can claim to be one. Since most homeowners and many businessmen fail to check insurance credentials a lot of low budget & inferior electrical work occurs here. The state government does have strict standards for its construction projects, as do some businesses. This has created a two tier system of construction and service contractors with one group providing service to the higher standard at a higher price and a lower tier providing low priced service. You get what you pay for here.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                  Only in a minority of states. Indiana is typical of most in having few licensing requirements for skilled trades. Plumbers have a brief two year apprenticeship program. Electricians have none. The only obstacle to starting a electrical business here is obtaining the appropriate insurance, and since there is no legal requirement for that in many cases any idiot can claim to be one. Since most homeowners and many businessmen fail to check insurance credentials a lot of low budget & inferior electrical work occurs here. The state government does have strict standards for its construction projects, as do some businesses. This has created a two tier system of construction and service contractors with one group providing service to the higher standard at a higher price and a lower tier providing low priced service. You get what you pay for here.
                  That's interesting. Here in Chicago, or rather, Northern Illinois (anything south of I-80 in these parts is referred to as 'southern' Illinois) we're a union town, and absolutely every apprenticeship program is tied to finding yourself a sponsor. This essentially means that most are "familied" in. You can go take the exam, finish in the top tiers of your class, and still be ignored until you find yourself a sponsor in a potential employer. I'm curious about how trade programs in the building trades work in other regions in the U.S. or Germany.
                  ...how useless it was to struggle against fortune, this being the burden of wisdom which the ages had bequeathed to him.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It's the same up here in Canada. So much attention is showered on universities over community colleges and apprenticeships.

                    It's almost as if you are not a teacher, or economist, or banker, or lawyer, or doctor, or engineer and not a member of the educated upper middle class, you will be seen as a a failure.

                    So there forth students are actively encouraged to go to University. Actual employment and massive debt loads be dammed.
                    ´
                    “You need to help people. I know it's not very Republican to say but you need to help people.” DONALD TRUMP, 2016

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jonathanrex1 View Post
                      It's the same up here in Canada. So much attention is showered on universities over community colleges and apprenticeships.

                      It's almost as if you are not a teacher, or economist, or banker, or lawyer, or doctor, or engineer and not a member of the educated upper middle class, you will be seen as a a failure.

                      So there forth students are actively encouraged to go to University. Actual employment and massive debt loads be dammed.
                      As Grandpa used to say: "Too many chiefs, and not enough Indians." This is the very reason I know college graduates that are having trouble finding employment in their studied fields. I know a certain individual who's gone a few years with nothing but disappointing prospects. They finally decided to go back and get their masters; which, of course isn't a bad thing, but I'd be a wreck with that mountain of debt hanging over me.
                      ...how useless it was to struggle against fortune, this being the burden of wisdom which the ages had bequeathed to him.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                        As usual, out of contact with reality. What fines? Speeding tickets? Why does the Geramn economy continue to grow, it's export markets as well?

                        Because they offer top quality for reaseonable prices, both of which the USSR doesn't do. I'm still waiting to see something labled "Made in Russia". When I do I'll still have to think that the quality is well below that of Made in Germany.

                        Why do I even waste my time with you.
                        Yes the usual flannel from uncle joe however the euro has helped the germans with an artficially suppressed currency that helps them export when if they still had the Mark, Mercedes and Karchers would be a lot more expensive. The government also did a deal with unions about 10 years over work conditions and pensions to make the more competitive. A smart move...

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                          the Geramn economy continue to grow
                          how do you know? who told you that?

                          Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                          I'm still waiting to see something labled "Made in Russia"
                          not often you would see "made in USA" either, and as you might know Russia is not allowed into the World Market because such is the policy of the West.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                            the usual flannel from uncle joe
                            you see, the West always makes a point of Germans to demonstrate that its other countries should also work like slaves and diligently pay taxes and fines and and other payments like health insurance etc.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by stalin View Post
                              you see, the West always makes a point of Germans to demonstrate that its other countries should also work like slaves and diligently pay taxes and fines and and other payments like health insurance etc.
                              You're last two comments show how how out of depth you are in this conversation. Your knowledge is massively deficient. Its not that I simply disagree with your argument, its that you don't have one as you simply don't know what you're talking about. How can you say the West doesnt allow Russia into the world market when Russian gas is sold readily into Western Europe. You're just talking trollish nonsense...

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