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  • LibDems: "UK should adopt Federal system"

    After seeing Fodder's post on the Scottish independence thread I felt this should be posted. It would radically change the UK but I believe things would be more equitable.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-19957358

    It also proposes the UK adopting a federal system, which would create a series of regional and national parliaments and assemblies across the United Kingdom, with a federal government retaining powers over foreign affairs, defence, currency, welfare and pensions.
    Sounds very much like our system (the United States). How ironic

  • #2
    Hi

    Their is little or no appetite in England for another layer of Government or representation. We have enough through local, parish & county councils, without some fabricated 'Regional' Government layer.

    Most voters will have some allegiance to their County or City based on various criteria (mainly sporting), but I doubt Politics comes anywhere in the mix of reasons. There are some general emotional regional alliances or kindred spirit at work, but there rather nebulous at best.

    The only place I can think of in England that would go for a regional layer of Government is the SW of England. However this is mainly based around the historical desire of the Cornish (Cornwall) to be semi-autonomous within the UK.

    Regards
    "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

    "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

    Comment


    • #3
      So there's been devolution towards Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales in recent years, but nothing of the kind towards English regions. Federalism has worked well enough for a variety of countries: Germany, Brazil, and the US, but -- at least from this New Yorker's point of view -- it comes across as just another layer of bureaucracy. I guess in places like Wales and Cornwall, definite linguistic and ethnic differences come into play, but for the average Briton, the question that must be asked should be, will the advantages of federalism outweigh the disadvantages.

      I guess we'll see soon enough.
      I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

      Comment


      • #4
        There is a lot of support among the public for an English Parliament but since all the political parties ignore it and no-one gets hysterical about it, it just seems there is no appetite.


        Labour attempts to Balkanize England failed humiliatingly.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Gooner View Post
          There is a lot of support among the public for an English Parliament but since all the political parties ignore it and no-one gets hysterical about it, it just seems there is no appetite.
          Maybe the view is just more pragmatic over there: imagine the general inconvenience of, upon moving from Islington to Merseyside of having to update your voter registration, your driver's license, you vehicle registration, etc, etc. Maybe Britons just have no stomach for that crap.

          Originally posted by Gooner View Post
          Labour attempts to Balkanize England failed humiliatingly.
          "Balkanize" would imply separate and distinct ethnicities. With so many generations of movement and intermarriage, would it at all reflect reality to view the British Isles in those terms in this era?
          I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Gooner View Post
            There is a lot of support among the public for an English Parliament but since all the political parties ignore it and no-one gets hysterical about it, it just seems there is no appetite.


            Labour attempts to Balkanize England failed humiliatingly.
            Long live thier humiliation.
            "Ask not what your country can do for you"

            Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

            you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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            • #7
              Do you think an English parliament would be enough to maintain cohesion as opposed to smaller regional parliaments?

              At the UK level successive Tory governments with no mandate in Scotland imposing policies that were deeply unpopular lead to internal tensions that eventually brought us to this point.

              I can see the same happening in an English Parliament where an overall majority Conservative support leads to successive Tory governements and a democratic deficit in areas like the north east. Pretty soon you have demands for representation and counter arguments that the spongers get more in public money than they generate in tax so they should put up and shut up.

              Comment


              • #8
                They dust this old chestnut off every decade or so. Nobody's ever taken it seriously in the past and I doubt it'll be any better received this time.
                Indyref2 - still, "Yes."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Fodder76 View Post
                  Do you think an English parliament would be enough to maintain cohesion as opposed to smaller regional parliaments?
                  Do you think that a Scottish parliament would be enough to maintain cohesion as opposed to smaller regional parliaments?

                  At the UK level successive Tory governments with no mandate in Scotland imposing policies that were deeply unpopular lead to internal tensions that eventually brought us to this point.

                  I can see the same happening in an English Parliament where an overall majority Conservative support leads to successive Tory governements and a democratic deficit in areas like the north east. Pretty soon you have demands for representation and counter arguments that the spongers get more in public money than they generate in tax so they should put up and shut up.
                  Your idea of democratic deficit is when your party is not in charge, I assume?

                  How is it OK for a UK parliament to pass law the majority of English MPs oppose but not OK for an English parliament to pass law the majority of - say Geordie - MPs oppose?

                  England still has a national identity, why can they not have their own parliament (should they choose)?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi

                    To some extent the idea of Parliaments based upon notional nationalities is just plainly stupid and fabricated.

                    When the 'Scots' vote in their referendum, it will contain almost a million non-Scots within the 5million 'Scottish' popn voting as well.
                    Equally if the 'English' were to vote on a English Parliament, you would have Scots, Welsh, Irish and all manner of other ethnic backgrounds participating.

                    Whilst Fodder has rightly brought up the fact that some recent Tory Governments have had no 'mandate' north of the border, the so called West Lothian question has haunted and influenced the Westminster (English) Parliament for decade upon decade.

                    It certainly will be interesting in both countries if Scotland becomes a sovereign nation, just how say English and Scottish politicians and functionaries (civil servants) will be treated in their new surroundings

                    Regards
                    "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                    "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Andy H View Post
                      Whilst Fodder has rightly brought up the fact that some recent Tory Governments have had no 'mandate' north of the border,
                      They had as much of a mandate as Labour goverments do in the country and Shires of England.

                      That is democracy.

                      West Lothian question has haunted and influenced the Westminster (English) Parliament for decade upon decade.
                      The West Lothian question is not democracy.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Andy H View Post
                        . . . . the so called West Lothian question . . . .
                        Wanna help a brotha out?
                        I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                          Wanna help a brotha out?
                          Under devolution English MP's have no say in devolved matters decided upon by MSPs in Edinburgh. In Westminster, however, there is nothing to stop a Scottish MP voting on a matter that is only applicable to England.


                          The nightmare scenario would be of a minority Tory government unable to push through English only legislation due to the votes of Scottish Labour MP's.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            To take your last point first

                            Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                            England still has a national identity, why can they not have their own parliament (should they choose)?
                            IMHO they absolutely should in the event of a no vote in the referendum, not only to finally address the West Lothian question.

                            Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                            Do you think that a Scottish parliament would be enough to maintain cohesion as opposed to smaller regional parliaments?
                            Yes, with a population less than that of Greater London you start to come up against the law of diminishing returns

                            Mind you someone, a Tory I think, proposed devolving more powers to local government rather than bring in a national English Parliament.

                            Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                            Your idea of democratic deficit is when your party is not in charge, I assume?
                            My idea of democratic deficit is when one nation, with its own national identity and politics, is ruled from another country by a political party that represents the antithesis of that nations shared politics and that has no mandate to rule in that nation.

                            Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                            How is it OK for a UK parliament to pass law the majority of English MPs oppose but not OK for an English parliament to pass law the majority of - say Geordie - MPs oppose?
                            If the law affects the UK as a whole, I would say the national make up of the MP's for and against is of no consequence. If the law relates only to English (and I presume Welsh?) matters then you have a problem.

                            With regards your Geordie example, that is a matter for the English themselves and it may be that it isn't an issue at all

                            however

                            I have noted while trawling articles on this topic over the past few years a large number of Geordies and, for that matter, Yorkies, who basically say if Scotland goes can we take them with us as they fear being on the wrong end of a Tory hegemony.

                            It may be that there is nothing to it, it may be that English national identity would trump such concerns. It may be, however, that regional identities become more pronounced in such circumstances (it was notable that Yorkshire was as fastidious in counting "their" Olympic medal winners as the SNP was).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Fodder76 View Post
                              Under devolution English MP's have no say in devolved matters decided upon by MSPs in Edinburgh. In Westminster, however, there is nothing to stop a Scottish MP voting on a matter that is only applicable to England.


                              The nightmare scenario would be of a minority Tory government unable to push through English only legislation due to the votes of Scottish Labour MP's.
                              Assuming such scenarios have occurred already, or at least have been discussed in hypothetical terms, how does that play out in the horse-trading that's part-and-parcel of normal parliamentary operation?
                              I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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