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  • Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
    I've never heard of the chinese government forcibly migrating workers to the cities (if you have, kindly state it, and pls don't rely on what happened to your country when). Quite the opposite, in fact. There's now a movement to have the migrant workers registered to ensure they receive the protection/benefits as "locals" would have.
    The Chinese government had to move approx 330,000 people in order to get the South/North water project started.
    But the government did compensate the Chinese with money to purchase new homes & land.
    Some of the Chinese that had to relocate, had bad experiences & difficulties with local officials.


    "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

    "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

    Comment


    • Hello P,

      My post was in response to the following posts:


      Originally posted by lakechampainer View Post
      Lenin and Stalin used the surplus rural population in an attempt to build industry - heavy industry really - to catch up with the West. This required people being forced to move to industrial centers or gulags, one way or the other.

      Mao tried to "keep people on the farm". That's they tried to produce iron in every neighborhood for a while, with the disastrous results.

      The powers in China the last few decades have gone to the Leninist/Stalinist playbook, although it is not just focused on heavy industry industry, obviously, as anyone who has been in a Wal-Mart knows.

      So I do see a similarity.
      Originally posted by lakechampainer View Post
      I did not say in any way say I want them to be unemployed. My claim is their Chinese elites are forcing people into the factory areas for their own interests. Please don't mis-state what I say.
      Originally posted by Imperial View Post
      Judging by what happened in communist times in my own country I doubt the process is as liberal as your post suggests.

      Sure, there will always be people migrating to cities in search for jobs, but the bulk, the masses of people don't migrate to cities on their own. They're relocated there by the state, whether they want to or not.

      For those that adapt it's a great change for the better, for those that don't, it's horrible. And the catch is that the good times last as long as the industry supporting the city prospers. The moment the economy starts having problems those cities become unemployment nightmares.

      My point was, the migrant population voluntarily migrate to the urban areas to look for jobs. Contrary to the above claims, I haven't heard of the gov't. forcing people to do so. If anything, at the start people were even discouraged to do so.

      I wasn't referring to gov't. simply forcing people away from their lands for (various) gov't. projects.

      No doubt the state (any state) has the right to force people to move. That's the state exercising its powers of eminent domain through expropriation. We have it too, and the gov't. does it to serve the general public. But forcible migration to force workers into jobs in urban areas? I don't think so.


      Gman
      "We have no white flag."

      Comment


      • Three Gorges Dam per Wikipedia

        Relocation of residents - I wonder what "encourage" means in practice?

        As of June 2008, China relocated 1.24 million residents, ending with Gaoyang in Hubei Province),[81][82] about 1.5% of the province's 60.3 million and Chongqing City's 31.44 million population.[83] About 140,000 residents were relocated to other provinces.[84]

        Relocation was completed on July 22, 2008.[82] Chongqing City will encourage an additional four million people to move away from the dam to the Chongqing metropolitan area by the year 2020.[85][86][87]

        Allegedly, funds for relocating 13,000 farmers around Gaoyang disappeared after being sent to the local government, leaving residents without compensation.[88]

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Gorges_Dam

        Comment


        • Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
          Hello P,

          My post was in response to the following posts:



          My point was, the migrant population voluntarily migrate to the urban areas to look for jobs. Contrary to the above claims, I haven't heard of the gov't. forcing people to do so. If anything, at the start people were even discouraged to do so.

          I wasn't referring to gov't. simply forcing people away from their lands for (various) gov't. projects.

          No doubt the state (any state) has the right to force people to move. That's the state exercising its powers of eminent domain through expropriation. We have it too, and the gov't. does it to serve the general public. But forcible migration to force workers into jobs in urban areas? I don't think so.


          Gman
          Well, let me get on the right topic then...

          I did read a recent article about inland Chinese workers overwhelming the big cities. Yes...they are going there in droves, willingly, to find better paying jobs. This is causing major housing shortages, among other issues.

          I would also like to add...many Chinese workers don't want to do unskilled manual labor anymore, they would rather go to the big cities for better jobs. This is causing a labor shortage in unskilled labor sector (manufacturing). And this is forcing foreign companies to move their factories from southern China to Southeast Asia.

          Kelvin Chan, April 5, 2011 - 05:21 AM
          Rising costs, higher wages drive low-cost manufacturing out of southern China


          GUANGZHOU, China (AP) - When millions of workers didn't return to their southern China factory jobs after Lunar New Year holidays, a turning point was reached for foreign manufacturers scraping by with slim profit margins.
          Companies were already under pressure from rising raw material costs, restive workers and lower payments for exports because of a stronger Chinese currency. Despite hiking wages, labor shortages kept getting worse as workers increasingly spurned the often repetitive and unskilled jobs that helped earn China its reputation as the world's low-cost factory floor.

          Later this year, these jobs will be gone as Guangzhou Fortunique's American owner, Charles Hubbs, moves a large chunk of production to Southeast Asia.
          "I don't know of any factory in China that can absorb both the raw material prices we have, the labor issues we've been looking at and the renminbi," China's strengthening currency, said Hubbs. The currency is also known as the yuan.
          He's joining a wave of export manufacturers, big and small, that are moving from China's coastal manufacturing regions to cheaper inland provinces or out of the country altogether, in a clear sign that southern China's days as a low-cost manufacturing powerhouse are numbered.

          http://www.canadianbusiness.com/mark...tent=D9MDDTV80
          "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

          "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

          Comment


          • Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
            I've never heard of the chinese government forcibly migrating workers to the cities (if you have, kindly state it, and pls don't rely on what happened to your country when). Quite the opposite, in fact. There's now a movement to have the migrant workers registered to ensure they receive the protection/benefits as "locals" would have.
            I don't think I used the term forcibly. I did say the bulk are relocated by state authorities whether they want to or not but I did not have in mind a "WWII cattle trains" image or one in which those that refuse are shot in the back of the head or something.

            (a) The pace of urbanization has accelerated in China, as evidenced by the growing size and
            number of cities and towns in a coordinated and proportionate fashion, thanks to a systemic
            effort to plan and readjust the country’s urban sector
            . By the end of 2002, China had 660
            officially certified cities and 20,601 officially certified towns, with the urban population reaching
            502 million and urbanization level standing at 39%.

            (b) The quality and level of urban and rural planning is improving steadily, as are laws and
            regulations. All the cities, most towns and 70% of villages have modified their master plan.
            Provincial governments, in line with requirements of the central government, have mapped out
            plans for urban development
            on a local level. To date, 14 provinces have obtained State Council
            approval of their plans.

            Means of Implementation
            (a) Wherever possible, the Chinese government has implemented a strategy to move rural
            populations into small towns in a planned and step-by-step manner
            .

            Some local governments, misguided by impractical ambitions, expanded the size and population of their cities blindly and built “image projects” and “performance projects”, causing
            land resource wastage and environmental pollution.
            http://www.un.org/esa/agenda21/natli...ttlementsf.pdf

            Comment


            • Links to SinoDefenceForum, about previous CIA operations in Tibet:


              http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...t-expedition-t


              http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/mili...ibet-1035.html
              Last edited by lakechampainer; 08 Apr 11, 17:36.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Persephone View Post
                Well, let me get on the right topic then...

                I did read a recent article about inland Chinese workers overwhelming the big cities. Yes...they are going there in droves, willingly, to find better paying jobs. This is causing major housing shortages, among other issues.

                I would also like to add...many Chinese workers don't want to do unskilled manual labor anymore, they would rather go to the big cities for better jobs. This is causing a labor shortage in unskilled labor sector (manufacturing). And this is forcing foreign companies to move their factories from southern China to Southeast Asia.
                And that's my point. Labor is voluntary. Now that there's a labor shortage, the gov't. can't even force them to go back to work...

                To say that they were forced to migrate for work is just plain... erroneous.
                "We have no white flag."

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Imperial View Post
                  I don't think I used the term forcibly. I did say the bulk are relocated by state authorities whether they want to or not but I did not have in mind a "WWII cattle trains" image or one in which those that refuse are shot in the back of the head or something.



                  http://www.un.org/esa/agenda21/natli...ttlementsf.pdf
                  When that phrase is used, one can't be faulted into thinking that force will be used for those who will "not" want to relocate. Thanks for clarifying.

                  BTW, what's the quote for?
                  "We have no white flag."

                  Comment


                  • The U.S. cannot set up a "triangle" with the "Soviet Far East" because of BRIC. It can't focus on Korean unification because it's been against the same. It can no longer "'monetize' U.S. debt" because it is already deep into debt. It can't couple Taiwan with Korea because of growing Chinese influence in both. It can't "work to promote rural unrest in China" because the latter is becoming increasingly industrialized. It can't "work with China to reduce Chinese pollution" because it industrialized countries can barely do that. It can't put "tariffs on Chinese goods" because it is heavily dependent on imported goods. It can't "take aggressive covert measures against North Korea" because the latter is a nuclear power, and its own military operations are already over-extended and deep in debt. It can't "aggressively challenge" the Chinese at sea or in the air for the same reasons (up to 40 pct of war costs are already being financed through foreign debt, and U.S. corporations benefiting and citizens paying). It can't "promote separatism in Tibet" because it is barely different from China in such regards in its attacks against Iraq, Afghanistan, and other countries. And it can hardly "challenge Chinese in space" given that most U.S. states are now close to bankruptcy.

                    Given such, perhaps the only thing it can do is hope that creditors will accept a restructuring of U.S. debt.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Persephone View Post
                      Well, let me get on the right topic then...

                      I did read a recent article about inland Chinese workers overwhelming the big cities. Yes...they are going there in droves, willingly, to find better paying jobs. This is causing major housing shortages, among other issues.

                      I would also like to add...many Chinese workers don't want to do unskilled manual labor anymore, they would rather go to the big cities for better jobs. This is causing a labor shortage in unskilled labor sector (manufacturing). And this is forcing foreign companies to move their factories from southern China to Southeast Asia.
                      Using eminent domain to condemn private property and make way for public works projects, poor peasants abandoning subsistence farming to pursue urban manufacturing jobs...

                      Why does this seem like a familiar scenario?
                      Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
                        When that phrase is used, one can't be faulted into thinking that force will be used for those who will "not" want to relocate. Thanks for clarifying.

                        BTW, what's the quote for?
                        The quote was to show there is a centralized, state-managed process of relocation from rural areas to urban areas.

                        In communist Romania this process was called systematization:

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systematization_(Romania)

                        I'm sure there are similar examples in all former communist states since urbanization and industrialization were core tenets of communist parties and many communist countries were largely agrarian.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Imperial View Post
                          The quote was to show there is a centralized, state-managed process of relocation from rural areas to urban areas.

                          In communist Romania this process was called systematization:

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systematization_(Romania)

                          I'm sure there are similar examples in all former communist states since urbanization and industrialization were core tenets of communist parties and many communist countries were largely agrarian.
                          True enough, I guess, in the past, particularly using the lure of free housing. I don't know how they do it in the present, nor if they still have to, given the fact that most of them would want the opportunity to live in the urban areas now.
                          "We have no white flag."

                          Comment


                          • How much in Debt is the US again? China has three trillion dollars surplus, thats on top of all their goverment funding and budgetary stuff.

                            thats enough to buy Apple, Microsoft, Google and Americas entire agricutral infastructre and still have enough to build one hundered of these ...



                            Source (one of many)
                            Task Force Regenbogen- Support and Paras

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                            • The U.S. has a total debt of around $57 trillion, with banks exposed to around $370 trillion in unregulated derivatives. Most U.S. states are close to bankruptcy, and the economy is kept afloat only through heavy borrowing and spending.

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