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How Should US Deal with China Long-term?

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  • A hankering for a simple life, specially one's childhood, is quite normal for people of advanced years, I think... Wherever they might choose to be, I hope they get the comfort they deserve.
    "We have no white flag."

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    • Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
      Which reflects the growth of the service sector; not a decline in manufacturing capacity and output.
      That would be a logical line of thinking ONLY if the economy were the same SIZE today, as in 1965. We have added 100,000 million people to the country, we now import what we used to self-manufacture.
      If war is Hell, why was the Eastern Front so damned cold??!!

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      • Lenin and Stalin used the surplus rural population in an attempt to build industry - heavy industry really - to catch up with the West. This required people being forced to move to industrial centers or gulags, one way or the other.

        Mao tried to "keep people on the farm". That's they tried to produce iron in every neighborhood for a while, with the disastrous results.

        The powers in China the last few decades have gone to the Leninist/Stalinist playbook, although it is not just focused on heavy industry industry, obviously, as anyone who has been in a Wal-Mart knows.

        So I do see a similarity.

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        • But how are they forced into it?

          If anything, for a while the policy was to prevent people from going to another place from where their residence was. It was only relatively lately that people were allowed to do so. Which is why I can't see what you're trying to say.
          "We have no white flag."

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          • I think the U.S. should concentrate on urgent domestic issues before getting involved in international affairs right now.

            If China wants to be "Top Dog", go right ahead. Maybe they can get the Arab world to chill out and solve the age-old Israel/Palestinian problem...
            "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

            "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

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            • G-man I've noticed that most of those who return to live in their former countries usually go back more economically advantaged. Living out in rural areas, even on a U.S. government social security check, often guarantees that you can have a maid or two. And if you have your children sending you money, then you standard of living can definitely be much higher. Nostalgia for the old ways? Perhaps. But perhaps it is more of a Nostalgia for being able to live at a level you only saw others living before.

              And Persephone, it's not that they don't fit into a modern society. It's more a question of an alien society. Emigration to a country with a very different language and culture is a very hard challenge. There are always those who cannot adjust, and returning these days is much easier than in the days of sail.
              Last edited by lirelou; 07 Apr 11, 10:25.
              dit: Lirelou

              Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá ǵ!

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              • Originally posted by american1975 View Post
                That would be a logical line of thinking ONLY if the economy were the same SIZE today, as in 1965. We have added 100,000 million people to the country, we now import what we used to self-manufacture.
                That makes even less sense than any of you previous posts in this thread.

                Manufacturing has declined as a percentage of our total economy because the service sector has grown much faster... But all sectors have grown in terms of the value of goods and services produced.

                We've actually added 115 million people to the US population since 1965.

                The current inflation-adjusted US economy is 3.6 times the size of the 1965 US economy.

                The current US population is 1.6 times the 1965 population.

                Our economy has grown more than twice as fast as the population over the last 45 years. Our inflation adjusted per capita GDP is currently 2.3 times as large as it was in 1965...

                Last edited by The Doctor; 07 Apr 11, 11:21.
                Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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                • Originally posted by lirelou View Post
                  G-man I've noticed that most of those who return to live in their former countries usually go back more economically advantaged. Living out in rural areas, even on a U.S. government social security check, often guarantees that you can have a maid or two. And if you have your children sending you money, then you standard of living can definitely be much higher. Nostalgia for the old ways? Perhaps. But perhaps it is more of a Nostalgia for being able to live at a level you only saw others living before.

                  And Persephone, it's not that they don't fit into a modern society. It's more a question of an alien society. Emigration to a country with a very different language and culture is a very hard challenge. There are always those who cannot adjust, and returning these days is much easier than in the days of sail.
                  Hello Lirelou,

                  Very true. They've spent their lives eking out a living, and they return to their "hometown" to retire. Admittedly, their hard-earned money goes a looong way further if they go back to their hometown. With asians, I'd still bet with nostalgia, though. I know quite a few who've made their lives and settled abroad, but still look forward to spending their sunset years "home".
                  "We have no white flag."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                    That makes even less sense than any of you previous posts in this thread.

                    Manufacturing has declined as a percentage of our total economy because the service sector has grown much faster... But all sectors have grown in terms of the value of goods and services produced.

                    We've actually added 115 million people to the US population since 1965.

                    The current inflation-adjusted US economy is 3.6 times the size of the 1965US economy.

                    The current US population is 1.6 times the 1965 population.

                    Our economy has grown more than twice as fast as the population over the last 45 years. Our inflation adjusted per capita GDP is currently 2.3 times as large as it was in 1965...

                    Doc, if you keep this up, I'll keep expecting graphs out of you! You make very good sense!
                    "We have no white flag."

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                    • Tarrifs versus Free Trade...

                      Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                      That makes even less sense than any of you previous posts in this thread.

                      Manufacturing has declined as a percentage of our total economy because the service sector has grown much faster... But all sectors have grown in terms of the value of goods and services produced.

                      We've actually added 115 million people to the US population since 1965.

                      The current inflation-adjusted US economy is 3.6 times the size of the 1965 US economy.

                      The current US population is 1.6 times the 1965 population.

                      Our economy has grown more than twice as fast as the population over the last 45 years. Our inflation adjusted per capita GDP is currently 2.3 times as large as it was in 1965...

                      According to your chart, the US standard of living was LOWER in the late 1950's, then the mid 1940's. I see that I will have to counter attack you with pure facts and graphs, I shall rejoin the battle tonight at work (depending on how exhausted I am,lol.) The destructive impact of free trade on this nation, versus the formative, unifying power of protective tarrifs, are a pet peeve of mine. If this distracts too much from the China focus of this thread, I shall gladly rejoin the fight on another titled "Protective Tarrifs versus Free Trade" , yet to be created
                      If war is Hell, why was the Eastern Front so damned cold??!!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by american1975 View Post
                        According to your chart, the US standard of living was LOWER in the late 1950's, then the mid 1940's. I see that I will have to counter attack you with pure facts and graphs, I shall rejoin the battle tonight at work (depending on how exhausted I am,lol.) The destructive impact of free trade on this nation, versus the formative, unifying power of protective tarrifs, are a pet peeve of mine. If this distracts too much from the China focus of this thread, I shall gladly rejoin the fight on another titled "Protective Tarrifs versus Free Trade" , yet to be created
                        The surge from 1939 to the mid-1940's was WWII. The sharp dip in the late 1940's was the very deep post-war recession.

                        Inflation-adjusted GDP per capita is not a measurement of "standard of living." It's a measurement of economic activity (or opportunity) per person.
                        Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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                        • Originally posted by GMan88 View Post
                          Well, when you say "huge, surplus rural population", doesn't it mean "unemployed"?

                          How does one gainfully employ a "huge surplus rural population"? These rural population MIGRATE to the cities in search of jobs. Can one afford to be choosy in selecting jobs when precisely there are too many people with too little job openings? Who's forcing (and how) people into the factory areas? The alternative of a huge surplus population from working is, of course, unemployment (not like what the US does, doesn't it, where those not seeking jobs aren't included in the unemployment count). If I misunderstood your post, I hope this explains it.
                          Judging by what happened in communist times in my own country I doubt the process is as liberal as your post suggests.

                          Sure, there will always be people migrating to cities in search for jobs, but the bulk, the masses of people don't migrate to cities on their own. They're relocated there by the state, whether they want to or not.

                          For those that adapt it's a great change for the better, for those that don't, it's horrible. And the catch is that the good times last as long as the industry supporting the city prospers. The moment the economy starts having problems those cities become unemployment nightmares.

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                          • I've never heard of the chinese government forcibly migrating workers to the cities (if you have, kindly state it, and pls don't rely on what happened to your country when). Quite the opposite, in fact. There's now a movement to have the migrant workers registered to ensure they receive the protection/benefits as "locals" would have.
                            "We have no white flag."

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